Is there election without belief?

Tercon

Well-known member
Is there election without belief or belief without election?

How does a unbeliever go from a unbeliever to a believer, what causes the unbeliever to start to believe?

What is God's act of election?

What occurs in God or what does He do to make unbelievers believers and made in His own image / His children?
 

eternomade

Active member
Is there election without belief or belief without election?
No, anyone who is elect will believe at some point before they die. We don't know who is elect.

How does a unbeliever go from a unbeliever to a believer, what causes the unbeliever to start to believe?
God grants belief and repentance. Without God intervening we are dead.

What is God's act of election?
I dont really understand this question.

What occurs in God or what does He do to make unbelievers believers and made in His own image / His children?
This kinda confuses me also.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No, anyone who is elect will believe at some point before they die. We don't know who is elect.

So, believers and the elect are the same people?

God grants belief and repentance. Without God intervening we are dead.

So he only grants belief and repentance to the elect?

I dont really understand this question.

This kinda confuses me also.

What does God do to cause election and/or belief? Or I have seen it referred to as "draw" those who are to believe?

Jesus answered, therefore, and said to them, `Murmur not one with another; no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day; it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me; not that any one hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:43-46)

Jesus answered and said, `Not because of me hath this voice come, but because of you; now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth; and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' (John 12:30-33)
 

eternomade

Active member
So, believers and the elect are the same people?
Not all elect are believers yet, but all elect will become believers.

So he only grants belief and repentance to the elect?
Yes, if they are not sheep, they are goats.

What does God do to cause election and/or belief? Or I have seen it referred to as "draw" those who are to believe?
I am not sure sure. I just know I did not believe the gospel but one day I did.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So, believers and the elect are the same people?

The elect BECOME believers, at some point in their lives.
As was explained to you, all of the elect will eventually believe, since God gives them faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7).

So he only grants belief and repentance to the elect?

Correct.
He's allowed to chose whom to give His gifts to.

What does God do to cause election and/or belief? Or I have seen it referred to as "draw" those who are to believe?

"Election" is simply the noun cognate of "elect", which is a verb which means, "to choose".
So God "chooses", to cause election. That's what "election" is.

What does God do to "cause belief"? He gives faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7).

"Drawing" is something God does to the (already) elect, at some point their lives. He draws them to Jesus.

Jesus answered, therefore, and said to them, `Murmur not one with another; no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day; it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me; not that any one hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:43-46)

Amen!

Jesus answered and said, `Not because of me hath this voice come, but because of you; now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth; and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' (John 12:30-33)

You provide no exegesis for commentary, so I must assume you make the same mistake many others make.

It does NOT say, "I ... will draw ALL INDIVIDUALS to myself".
It says, "I will draw 'all MEN' to myself (meaning all kinds/classes of men).

Further, it is wrong to juxtapose John 12:32 with John 6:44, since John 6 is about the Father's drawing, while John 12 is about Christ's drawing. Christ is not the Father.
 

Iconoclast

Active member
Is there election without belief or belief without election?

How does a unbeliever go from a unbeliever to a believer, what causes the unbeliever to start to believe?

What is God's act of election?

What occurs in God or what does He do to make unbelievers believers and made in His own image / His children?
2tim.1:9
Election takes place before the world was.

All are born sinners, children of wrath,dead in sin . eph2:1-4
All are responsible to repent and believe,Acts17:30
The Spirit of God draws those elected to Jesus.
He grants them repentance and faith,giving them a new heart.
The others are left.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
The elect BECOME believers, at some point in their lives.
As was explained to you, all of the elect will eventually believe, since God gives them faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7).

So, the the elect's faith originates in and with God?

Correct.
He's allowed to chose whom to give His gifts to.

So, how does He choose the elect, given that they are drawn by something that He does or that originates in and with Him right?

"Election" is simply the noun cognate of "elect", which is a verb which means, "to choose".
So God "chooses", to cause election. That's what "election" is.

Yes I know. So, He draws them to Himself with something right?

What does God do to "cause belief"? He gives faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7).

"Drawing" is something God does to the (already) elect, at some point their lives. He draws them to Jesus.

Okay. So God does something that draws the elect to Himself. The elect hear is voice and respond with belief right? And "the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.'"

Simple question: How do you think that in Jesus "[is] the Father, and I in Him."? How is the Father in Christ and Christ in the Father?

`Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is not entering through the door to the fold of the sheep, but is going up from another side, that one is a thief and a robber; and he who is entering through the door is shepherd of the sheep; to this one the doorkeeper doth open, and the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth; and when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on, and the sheep follow him, because they have known his voice;and a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, because they have not known the voice of strangers.'
This similitude spake Jesus to them, and they knew not what the things were that he was speaking to them; Jesus said therefore again to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you -- I am the door of the sheep; all, as many as came before me, are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them; I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.
`The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly.
`I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep; and the hireling, and not being a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, doth behold the wolf coming, and doth leave the sheep, and doth flee; and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep; and the hireling doth flee because he is an hireling, and is not caring for the sheep.
`I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
`Because of this doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that again I may take it; no one doth take it from me, but I lay it down of myself; authority I have to lay it down, and authority I have again to take it; this command I received from my Father.'
Therefore, again, there came a division among the Jews, because of these words, and many of them said, `He hath a demon, and is mad, why do ye hear him?' others said, `These sayings are not those of a demoniac; is a demon able blind men's eyes to open?'
men's eyes to open?'
And the dedication in Jerusalem came, and it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the porch of Solomon, the Jews, therefore, came round about him, and said to him, `Till when our soul dost thou hold in suspense? if thou art the Christ, tell us freely.'
Jesus answered them, `I told you, and ye do not believe; the works that I do in the name of my Father, these testify concerning me; but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep, according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me, and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father; I and the Father are one.'
Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him; Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'
The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'
Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods? if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,) of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say -- Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am? if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me; and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.'
Therefore were they seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand, and went away again to the other side of the Jordan, to the place where John was at first baptizing, and remained there, and many came unto him, and said -- `John, indeed, did no sign, and all things, as many as John said about this one were true;' and many did believe in him there. (John 10)

You provide no exegesis for commentary, so I must assume you make the same mistake many others make
It does NOT say, "I ... will draw ALL INDIVIDUALS to myself".
It says, "I will draw 'all MEN' to myself (meaning all kinds/classes of men).

Further, it is wrong to juxtapose John 12:32 with John 6:44, since John 6 is about the Father's drawing, while John 12 is about Christ's drawing. Christ is not the Father.

Strawman.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
2tim.1:9
Election takes place before the world was.

Yes I know. Nothing could occur until He made it occur. He does something to make everything that occurs occur. Everything that exists and occurs exist and occurs in Him first.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Not all elect are believers yet, but all elect will become believers.

So, they are the same people right?

Yes, if they are not sheep, they are goats.

If they aren't believers, then they are unbelievers?

I am not sure sure. I just know I did not believe the gospel but one day I did.

So, you can't remember when the belief started or the moment when you went from a unbeliever to a believer?
 

eternomade

Active member
Yes I can remember the day too.

But can you remember the moment you stopped being a unbeliever and became a believer?
Yes, not sure why it matters though. Care to explain?

I grew up in the church and believed a false gospel until that day.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Yes, not sure why it matters though. Care to explain?

I grew up in the church and believed a false gospel until that day.

I can't remember the moment I went from unbeliever and not knowing God to a believer and knowing Him. All I can remember was that all of a sudden I knew God.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Is there election without belief or belief without election?

How does a unbeliever go from a unbeliever to a believer, what causes the unbeliever to start to believe?

What is God's act of election?

What occurs in God or what does He do to make unbelievers believers and made in His own image / His children?
Red bolding mine.

The Bible provides the answers you seek.

Ephesians 1:3-5

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,


So God chose the elect before the foundation of the world.

Don't make this difficult. The Bible teaches this with clarity.

No one has used a strawman. Probably best not to say these kinds of things.

Take one step at a time. You must accept that God chooses, those whom he chooses and that he does so for his own glory and purpose.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Red bolding mine.

The Bible provides the answers you seek.

Ephesians 1:3-5

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Amen.

So God chose the elect before the foundation of the world.

Yes He did. But how did He do that, what does He do to create believers?

Don't make this difficult. The Bible teaches this with clarity.

I don't. Rather knowing how God creates believers provides much clarity into God has a believer's Father.

And yes He makes it quite clear how He is does everything with believers.

No one has used a strawman. Probably best not to say these kinds of things.

When you misrepresent people and the Bible; that is a form of lying. You may not know the difference, because of ignorance, but you are still held accountable by being kept ignorant of God's way.

Take one step at a time. You must accept that God chooses, those whom he chooses and that he does so for his own glory and purpose.

I have accepted how God chooses, I even know how He chooses. And for those whom he chooses, he does so to create and purpose them in His own imagine and glory.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Amen.



Yes He did. But how did He do that, what does He do to create believers?



I don't. Rather knowing how God creates believers provides much clarity into God has a believer's Father.

And yes He makes it quite clear how He is does everything with believers.



When you misrepresent people and the Bible; that is a form of lying. You may not know the difference, because of ignorance, but you are still held accountable by being kept ignorant of God's way.



I have accepted how God chooses, I even know how He chooses. And for those whom he chooses, he does so to create and purpose them in His own imagine and glory.

Not exactly, but I'll take progress as it comes.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Amen.






When you misrepresent people and the Bible; that is a form of lying. You may not know the difference, because of ignorance, but you are still held accountable by being kept ignorant of God's way.



I have accepted how God chooses, I even know how He chooses. And for those whom he chooses, he does so to create and purpose them in His own imagine and glory.

These are your words.

1. I did not misrepresent anyone. Neither did the person you are accusing. He stated facts that you don't want to address.

2. Your statements about knowing 'how' God chooses, isn't clear at all. As the other Poster observed, your statements are without a Biblical basis.

3. No Biblical basis equals no Biblical understanding.
 
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