Is there some truth to this? The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values.

Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?
It was John Adams who said,

The experiment is made, and has completely succeeded; it can no longer be called in question, whether authority in magistrates and obedience of citizens can be grounded on reason, morality and the Christian religion, without the monkery of priests, or the knavery of politicians.
However,

By "Christian religion," Adams meant something like what Jeffeerson meant when he used similar phrases -- the ideals of Jesus, his philosophy, without organized religion -- hence Adams's pejorative qualifier "without the monkery of priests."
From "The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American," by Andrew Seidel, pages 40-41.

Ultimately, though, it's just his opinion. While the Founders were pretty clever, they were still limited by their time and place. This is more an intuition on Adams's part, rather than some firm conclusion with sufficient evidence that would compel acceptance.
 

vibise

Active member
Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?
No. I think the founders relied more on British common law and Enlightenment principles.

Many of those founders were Deists rather than Christian, and those who were Christian held beliefs that would not be recognized by modern Evangelicals. For example, Jefferson took a scissors to the gospels and cut out things like the miracles attributed to Jesus, and when George Washington went to church, he refused to participate in communion and walked out if that was done.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?
The irony is that the biggest danger to the country right now is the Trump-led Republican party who at least claim to embrace Judeo/Christian values.
 

Buzzard

Active member
Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?
john james said:
The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, Yes and No;
a study of the Laws of "Moses" not the 10 commandments
which The Law of Moses for the Tribe of Judah (Judicial )
Rulers (10's then 50's then 100's and 1000's )
is a Republican form of government
The tribe of Judah were the Judicial = Lawyers that make and enforce the Law
and the Judges which administer the Law

Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,
with the statutes and judgments.

most do not know this; but the 1st recorded OSHA laws were given by Moses
The 1st disability Law was there also
Retirement, and a Welfare System for those in need
rules and regulations for the Medical Profession

Just because it was given thru Moses,
Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,
with the statutes and judgments.
doesn't mean it wasn't the way God ordained it,
unfortunately, the Jews of old did not hold fast to it
nor appoint honest men to administer it

God never intended for them to have a :devilish: "KING" 👿
see 1st Samuel ch. 8 and the warning given because of it

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
if you remember, Elijah was sent to rebuke Ahab and Jezzie-bell
not the nation itself

The failure to hold fast to our Constitution will result in this
"lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
 
Last edited:

Carol

Member
john james said:
The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, Yes and No;
a study of the Laws of "Moses" not the 10 commandments
which The Law of Moses for the Tribe of Judah (Judicial )
Rulers (10's then 50's then 100's and 1000's )
is a Republican form of government
The tribe of Judah were the Judicial = Lawyers that make and enforce the Law
and the Judges which administer the Law

Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,
with the statutes and judgments.

most do not know this; but the 1st recorded OSHA laws were given by Moses
The 1st disability Law was there also
Retirement, and a Welfare System for those in need
rules and regulations for the Medical Profession

Just because it was given thru Moses,
Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,
with the statutes and judgments.
doesn't mean it wasn't the way God ordained it,
unfortunately, the Jews of old did not hold fast to it
nor appoint honest men to administer it

God never intended for them to have a :devilish: "KING" 👿

But they wanted to be like other nations.

see 1st Samuel ch. 8 and the warning given because of it

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
if you remember, Elijah was sent to rebuke Ahab and Jezzie-bell
not the nation itself

The failure to hold fast to our Constitution will result in this
"lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
 

Furion

Active member
Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?

Once you get past the equivocations about "not a christian country, not christian founders, more like deists who didn't actually believe in God".....then the answer is yes.

America is not compatible with islamists, communists nor progressive social tyrants.

So they agitate...undermine....and riot
 

Carol

Member
Once you get past the equivocations about "not a christian country, not christian founders, more like deists who didn't actually believe in God".....then the answer is yes.

America is not compatible with islamists, communists nor progressive social tyrants.

FDR was "progressive". Woodrow Wilson.
US has been headed down this path for a long time.

So they agitate...undermine....and riot
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Totally unsupported assertion. In fact your Chief Klowns 2 weeks ago said it was Global Warming.
One only has to look at the farce Trump and his cronies are making of this election and the way they are trying to steal it to see that it is totally supported. Trump, along with the near-worship of him, is the single biggest danger facing America today.
 
I meant morality based from Judeo/Christian such as right verses wrong. The person said that each person was expected to govern themselves in this fashion and the system would work.

It appears this could have some truth to it because the more the country becomes less like judeo/Christian, the more the country degrades. Now some think they can be their own god, they can identify themselves anyway they want and they can determine what right or wrong is. So basically morality is relative to what each person thinks and enforced by the majority. It wasn't like that before. It was a enforced by a common sense of what right and wrong was but that common thought has changed. Some people think only discrimination, murder and rape is wrong. Some think stealing, lying, adultery and everything else is okay. Some say if it doesn't hurt a person, it is okay. It appears some peoples bad desires motivate them when in the past, it was more people that was motivated by what was actually right and good. Some people who are motivated by their desire just try to make it seem like it is about good but it really is about their desire.
Not saying bad things didn't happen by some in the U.S. in the past but it seems it was much closer to what the founders set up in many ways then it is now, if this is true any.
I think history is being forgotten and revised.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
I meant morality based from Judeo/Christian such as right verses wrong. The person said that each person was expected to govern themselves in this fashion and the system would work.

It appears this could have some truth to it because the more the country becomes less like judeo/Christian, the more the country degrades.
No, that's not correct. By 'degrades' all you mean is 'move further away from traditional Judeo/Christian morals'. Which makes your statement just "The more the country moves away from traditional Judeo/Christian morals, the more the country moves away from traditional Judeo/Christian morals".

Whether the country degrades or not is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle, I would say, is moving away from traditional Judeo/Christian values, and a great many people think it's a degradation - immorality that is spreading. A great many other people, however, think that it's a sign of moral progress. The same can be said of abortion, increased promiscuity and so forth.
Now some think they can be their own god, they can identify themselves anyway they want and they can determine what right or wrong is. So basically morality is relative to what each person thinks and enforced by the majority. It wasn't like that before.
Yeah, it was. It's always been like that. There were still gay people, trans people, people being promiscuous, women getting pregnant outside marriage and the like fifty years ago, a hundred years ago. The only thing that's changed today is the openness of these things.
It was a enforced by a common sense of what right and wrong was but that common thought has changed. Some people think only discrimination, murder and rape is wrong. Some think stealing, lying, adultery and everything else is okay. Some say if it doesn't hurt a person, it is okay.
Again, that's the way it has always been. There have always been thieves, liars and adulterers. There have always been moral consequentialists.
It appears some peoples bad desires motivate them when in the past, it was more people that was motivated by what was actually right and good.
When you say "what was actually right and good" all you mean is "what I (i.e., you) thought was right and good". That doesn't make your morals objectively correct; it doesnt' make them 'actual' right and good.
Some people who are motivated by their desire just try to make it seem like it is about good but it really is about their desire.
Not saying bad things didn't happen by some in the U.S. in the past but it seems it was much closer to what the founders set up in many ways then it is now, if this is true any.
The founders who, many of them, were slave holders? Who wouldn't even allow that african americans were people, deserving of what we would think of as decent treatment? Again, a great many people would say that society's collective morals have progressed since those days.
I think history is being forgotten and revised.
How so?
 

Backup

Active member
Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?
Obviously the idea of Judeo/Christian values is a relatively new concept and would have been unknown to the Founding Fathers.

Also, American Evangelicalism has transformed itself into Trump Cultism.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Is there some truth to this?

The U.S. was developed where it could only work with people self governing themselves based upon Judeo/Christian values. Since many are rejecting those values, the U.S. system and system of government is breaking down. The checks and balances are being ignored. The executive and judicial branches are doing things only the legislative branch is supposed to do. Some laws are not being enforced. The constitution is being interpreted to mean now what it never meant. The country is being destroyed from with in.

The above was told to me by a person who studys history and theology, do you think there is some truth to this?
That is what I read of John Adams.


Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other


here's a more recent commentary on the idea.

 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
That is what I read of John Adams.


Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other


here's a more recent commentary on the idea.

Please show how our constitution would not work for a (hypothetical) nation of atheists.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Please show how our constitution would not work for a (hypothetical) nation of atheists.
It's pretty simple.
The only morals you have are those which suit you at they time they do so. We've had the past 5000 years of human civilization to watch what happens, and the past 100 years to see what China, Soviet Russia, and No. Korea has done with atheism.
They've been the bloodiest on record.


Likewise the idea that most of the wars of history have been caused by religion is demonstrably false. The vast majority of wars have been conducted in the pursuit of profits or power, or waged for territory or tribal supremacy, even if religion has been caught up in those pursuits. But there is a very real sense in which religion can moderate those forces. David Hart notes that, "Religious conviction often provides the sole compelling reason for refusing to kill … or for seeking peace … the truth is that religion and irreligion are cultural variables, but killing is a human constant".​
Of course millions were killed at the hands of Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot. To say their murderous totalitarianism had nothing to do with their atheism is to completely misunderstand them and the ideologies on which their actions rested. Yale theologian Miroslav Volf argues that as far as Christianity goes, it will only be violent if it is stripped of its content— thinned out - and infused with a different set of values. The story of Jesus gives absolutely no warrant for violence. Any believer behaving that way is disobeying the one they claim to be following.​
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
It's pretty simple.
The only morals you have are those which suit you at they time they do so.
Precisely the same is true of Christians. Wasn't that long ago they thought slavery was just fine.

It's not the religious that the constitution won't work without; it's the moral. And you've zero evidence that atheists are any less moral than theists.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
I meant morality based from Judeo/Christian such as right verses wrong. The person said that each person was expected to govern themselves in this fashion and the system would work.
This sounds like an ideal, rather than the goal of the US system of governance.

Your interlocutor sounds like he's engaging in wishful thinking, rather than having come to this conclusion as a result of investigation and reasoning. And the reality is that the Judeo/Christian value system isn't built around self-governance, either.
 
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