Isaiah 22 = The Keys

Buzzard

Well-known member
ramcam2 said:
shebna was the royal steward in the davidic kingdom during the reign of king hezekiah. isaiah foretold the fall of one royal steward and the succession of another. shebna was baing replaced by eliakim and the prophet said ' i will place on his shoulder the key to the house of david'.
matt16: 17-19 is a direct quotation of isaiah 22. when jesus said to peter, 'i will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven', the apostles knew jesus was alluding to the passage in isaiah22. many protestant biblical scholars support this understanding and affirm that Jesus is delegating his authority over life and death, heaven and hell, to the founder of his Church on earth.

the three images of rock, steward, and shepherd are biblical reasons why we claim peter's authority (the prime minister) in the church jesus established..
Click to expand...
Ram says
matt16: 17-19 is a direct quotation of isaiah 22.

Isaiah 22:

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;
so he shall open,
and none shall shut;
and he shall shut,
and none shall open
.


No it is not;
but here is a ""DIRECT QUOTE""""
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
These things saith he that is holy, he that is true,
he that hath the key of David,
-------------Isaiah 22:------------------------Rev.3:7

----------
so he shall open,---------------he that openeth,
---------
and none shall shut;----------and no man shutteth;
---------and he shall shut,-----------------and shutteth,
--------
and none shall open.----------and no man openeth;

Ram;
and no man shutteth;
and
and no man openeth;

was Peter """A MAN"""


then Peter does not have those Keys
nor any other man
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Non Sequitur. He didn't deny the keys. He denied the meaning you gave to the keys, and supplied an alternative from scripture which you are ignoring and replacing with logical fallacies.
And what meaning do you give to the keys, if not authority?

So much for the "keys open things" or "the key is the Gospel because that opens heaven to believers" or "we all have the keys because Jesus gave them to all the disciples" lines.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
So Jesus didn't REALLY give keys to Peter even though He said so.
Is that the proper "understanding"?
... He denied the meaning you gave to the keys, and supplied an alternative from scripture which you are ignoring and replacing with logical fallacies.
Right; there are different keys:
a) Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
b) Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

RCC's keys:
Papacy is God on earth, who has the power to forgive sins, which God alone can do.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Non Sequitur. He didn't deny the keys. He denied the meaning you gave to the keys, and supplied an alternative from scripture which you are ignoring and replacing with logical fallacies.
then Peter does not have those Keys
nor any other man
He denies that anyone has them. Protestants on CARM have stated that everyone has them. So, who is right?
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Right; there are different keys:
a) Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
b) Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
The issue at hand is the keys given to Peter. What do they stand for?

RCC's keys:
Papacy is God on earth,
The pope is not God. If you believe that, then you must believe that Moses was God, since he also had God given authority over the people.

who has the power to forgive sins, which God alone can do.

John 20: 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
John 20: 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
What must a pedophile do to receive forgiveness from the victim?
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Buzzard said:
then Peter does not have those Keys
nor any other man
He denies that anyone has them. Protestants on CARM have stated that everyone has them. So, who is right?
He denies that anyone has them. Protestants on CARM have stated that everyone has them. So, who is right?

Different Keys, Pilgrim; different Keys
Keys = Plural
Key = Singular

Matt.13:51
Jesus saith unto them,
Have ye understood all these things?
They say unto him,
Yea, Lord.

52 Then said he unto them,
Therefore
every scribe
which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven
is like unto a man that is an householder,
which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Woe unto you Lawyers

(Experts in the Law)

Woe unto you, lawyers!
for ye have taken away the key of knowledge:
ye entered not in yourselves,

(into the kingdom of heaven)
and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Ps.69:4
They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head:
they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully,
are mighty:
then I restored that which I took not away.
.


Woe unto you, lawyers!

for ye have taken away the key of knowledge:
---------- But -------------
.... I restored that which I took not away.
 
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Buzzard

Well-known member
[

pilgrim said:
He denies that anyone has them. Protestants on CARM have stated that everyone has them. So, who is right?
Not so there Pilgrim;
I posted no Man has these Keys
including Peter
Isaiah 22 ---> Rev.3:7


he that hath the key of David,
-------------
Isaiah 22:------------------------Rev.3:7

----------so he shall open,---------------he that openeth,
---------and none shall shut;----------and no man shutteth;
---------and he shall shut,-----------------and shutteth,
--------and none shall open.----------and
no man openeth;

What good are the Keys
if Peter nor any other Man can use them to Open or Shut ????
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
What must a pedophile do to receive forgiveness from the victim?
That would be dependent upon the victim. Some victims probably won't be able to forgive them. Ultimately, forgiveness is what one does for oneself. It sounds like a paradox, but even if a victim can forgive them, it doesn't necessarily follow that God has forgiven them. A victim can forgive without knowing the heart of the pedophile, but God knows that "the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and most assuredly deserves eternal damnation.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
That would be dependent upon the victim. Some victims probably won't be able to forgive them. Ultimately, forgiveness is what one does for oneself. It sounds like a paradox, but even if a victim can forgive them, it doesn't necessarily follow that God has forgiven them. A victim can forgive without knowing the heart of the pedophile, but God knows that "the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and most assuredly deserves eternal damnation.
Yes. Everyone deserves eternal damnation. There you go.
 
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