Islam is not Peaceful. The Quran promotes violence.

2ndActs

Member
Actually the Koran does appear to be very violent.

Look at the Koran itself it is full of militancy. For example here are some verses from the Koran. Admittedly some are in the context of defense – but violent all the same.



“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors”. 2:190

“And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter”

2:191



“And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and Faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression”. 2:193



“Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not” 2:216



"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74



“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89



"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95



"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60



"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65



"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14



"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29



"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52
 
Actually the Koran does appear to be very violent.
First a couple of observations: the Quran appearing very violent is not the same as promoting violence. Neither is appearing violent identical with "Islam is not peaceful." The Bible also appears very violent. It's got God commanding genocide, violently killing people both individually and en masse. It's got a poet king often asking for his enemies to be eviscerated or disemboweled. That being said,



Assuming the op as a given, what do you think should be done about it?
 
First a couple of observations: the Quran appearing very violent is not the same as promoting violence. Neither is appearing violent identical with "Islam is not peaceful." The Bible also appears very violent. It's got God commanding genocide, violently killing people both individually and en masse. It's got a poet king often asking for his enemies to be eviscerated or disemboweled. That being said,



Assuming the op as a given, what do you think should be done about it?
The Quran is the guide book to Muslim behavior. The Quran exhorts believers to violence. Hence it promotes violence.

The New Testament is the quide book for Christians. Jesus never promoted violence. The opposite is true. He said "those who live by the sword die by the sword" and to "love your enemies".

The Old testament was an imperfect revelation of Gods perfect will.
 
The Quran is the guide book to Muslim behavior. The Quran exhorts believers to violence. Hence it promotes violence.

The New Testament is the quide book for Christians. Jesus never promoted violence. The opposite is true. He said "those who live by the sword die by the sword" and to "love your enemies".

The Old testament was an imperfect revelation of Gods perfect will.
You are not addressing the substance of my op-reply, you are being selective with scripture, and abusing the word of God.

My point was that both the Bible and the Quran contain content that some can and do interpret to be promoting violence. History is filled with Christians using the Bible to support violence. Denying this is delusional.
 
Jesus never promoted violence.
Aside from the fact that is an argument from silence fallacy, the above proves otherwise.

Matthew 11:12
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

Keep in mind that violence in word is just a matter of degrees different than violence of the hand, and great violence is done to God's word when it is misrepresented.
The opposite is true. He said "those who live by the sword die by the sword" and to "love your enemies".
The exact same guy who said all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword, also said,

Matthew 10:34
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36
And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Have you bought your sword? If not, then you are disobedient to Christ's command ;).

Notice the two-edged sword (God's word) is used against the Church in Pergamum (Rev. 2:16:). Notice also that violent imagery is sometimes used rhetorically in the New Testament.

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

1 Corinthians 4:21
What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?

Galatians 5:12
I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate [castrate] themselves.
.
The Old Testament was an imperfect revelation of Gods perfect will.
Hmmm...

"An imperfect revelation," you say? God's word is "imperfect"? So much for God being perfect in all His ways.

Psalm 19:7
The Law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”


Remember: The New Testament had not yet been written. All they had was Tanakh.


While it is true there is no Old Testament mass genocide in the New Testament, there is plenty of content therein that could easily be interpreted as support for violence. Many have done the same with the Quran. Islam's history, like that of Christianity and Judaism, is filled with its spread at the end of a blade (or rifle). Be more discerning.
 
Aside from the fact that is an argument from silence fallacy, the above proves otherwise.

Matthew 11:12
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

Keep in mind that violence in word is just a matter of degrees different than violence of the hand, and great violence is done to God's word when it is misrepresented.

The exact same guy who said all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword, also said,

Matthew 10:34
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36
And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Have you bought your sword? If not, then you are disobedient to Christ's command ;).

Notice the two-edged sword (God's word) is used against the Church in Pergamum (Rev. 2:16:). Notice also that violent imagery is sometimes used rhetorically in the New Testament.

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

1 Corinthians 4:21
What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?

Galatians 5:12
I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate [castrate] themselves.
.

Hmmm...

"An imperfect revelation," you say? God's word is "imperfect"? So much for God being perfect in all His ways.

Psalm 19:7
The Law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”


Remember: The New Testament had not yet been written. All they had was Tanakh.


While it is true there is no Old Testament mass genocide in the New Testament, there is plenty of content therein that could easily be interpreted as support for violence. Many have done the same with the Quran. Islam's history, like that of Christianity and Judaism, is filled with its spread at the end of a blade (or rifle). Be more discerning.
Silence fallacy ? Obviously you didnt read my original post. Here are explicit and directive verses in the Quran directing Muslims to war -

“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors”. 2:190.
“And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter”2:191.
“And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and Faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression”. 2:193.
“Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not” 2:216.
"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74.
“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89.
"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95.
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60.
"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65.
"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14.
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29.
"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52.

All of the NT verses you have quoted are either allegorical or you have taken them out of context.

Yes. The OT is a progressive revelation. Not that difficult to understand. Abraham did not have the revelation of Moses. Moses did not have the revelation of the later prophets. The later prophets did not have the revelation of Jesus.
Jeremiah 31.31 -34 talks about a New Covenant. ie. a progressive revelation.

The FACT remains. The Quran directly orders Muslims to war and Mohamad was a War Lord / a man of the sword.

The FACT remains. Jesus never ordered his believers to war. Jesus was a pacifist.

You can try to discern "interpretation" all you like. This counts for nothing compared to clear orders and directives to war and violence that are found in the Quran but NOT found in the NT (as hard as you try to take verses out of context) . I suggest you see it as it is, rather than attempt to obfuscate. You need to be more honest with the facts.
 
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First a couple of observations: the Quran appearing very violent is not the same as promoting violence. Neither is appearing violent identical with "Islam is not peaceful." The Bible also appears very violent. It's got God commanding genocide, violently killing people both individually and en masse. It's got a poet king often asking for his enemies to be eviscerated or disemboweled. That being said,



Assuming the op as a given, what do you think should be done about it?
Let me correct my statement. The Quran does not "appear" violent. It IS violent. Read the original verses I quoted. The religion of Mohamad is more similar to ISIS than it is to the Western moderate Muslim version we see in western countries.

Which verses talk about being ... eviscerated or disemboweled? Can you name them? Even if you can, Ive already expalined the relationship of the OT to the NT. The OT is the NT concealed. The NT is the OT revealed.
 
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I'm having difficulty with the forum accepting the entirety of my posts so I am breaking it into portions the forum accepts.


There are also many passages in both the Quran and the Bible that can (and should) be read to promote peace. Do you know any of them? Can you quote ten of them in this thread to prove your greater knowledge of the Quran's content? Can you do the same with the Bible? Are you aware the Quran calls its teaching "the way of peace"? If so then why the selective and contradictory use of the Quran? If not then this op is a half-truth (and the Bible prohibits false witness).
 
I have read the Quran from cover to cover. I have done the same many, many times with the Bible. As a Christian, I believe anyone and everyone who does not have Jesus, the anointed one of God, as both their Lord and their Savior through who alone salvation from sin is found is headed for eternal destruction. Do not misconstrue my posts as support for the Quran.

The problems with this op are...
  • Selective use of the Quran results on false witness.
  • Over-generalizing selective use is a logical fallacy.
  • Implying violent content in a book promotes violence in the readers is a false cause fallacy.

I could probably find a verse in the Bible that matches every verse in the Quran cited in this op. Were I to do so, would you then conclude Christianity is not peaceful and the Bible promotes violence?
 
Let me correct my statement. The Quran does not "appear" violent. It IS violent.
So what? So too is the Bible.
Read the original verses I quoted.
I did. You need to stop posting that nonsense in assumption the post wasn't read.
The religion of Mohamad is more similar to ISIS than it is to the Western moderate Muslim version we see in western countries.
I do not see any evidence in this entire thread leading to the conclusion you know much if anything about Islam (or ISIS). Stop making broad over-generalized statements and start reasoning through your case in a manner that proves your position because so far it looks like that ability is absent. There are simply too many logical fallacies present in the thread to justify a logical argument (or its conclusion).
Which verses talk about being ... eviscerated or disemboweled? Can you name them?
Okay.

Galatians 5:12 NAS
I wish that those who are troubling you would even emasculate themselves.

Galatians 5:12 KJV
I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

Galatians 5:12 NET
I wish those agitators would go so far as to castrate themselves!

.
Even if you can, I've already explained the relationship of the OT to the NT. The OT is the NT concealed. The NT is the OT revealed.
Yes, and your explanation is incorrect, beginning with the asserted premise God's word is imperfect. What happened is I (and all thelurkers) learned you not only don't know how to read the Quran, you don't know how to read the Bible, either. So it's best to stick to the op. The op claims Islam is not peaceful because the Quran promotes violence and then, to evidence that position, a sample of the Quran is quoted but only the verses directing violence are selected. The problem with that method is the selected verses do not represent the whole. Another problem with that method is the logic of implying violent content necessarily promotes violence. Comparatively speaking, the exact same kind of abuses could be applied to the Bible and Christianity and any protest to the contrary simply proves the fallacious nature of the op!

Those problems are not being addressed.
 
From where was the information used in this opening post sourced? Was it an online article, a radio sermon, a book recently read, a YouTube video? What (beside the quoted texts from the Quran) were your sources for this op?
 
From where was the information used in this opening post sourced? Was it an online article, a radio sermon, a book recently read, a YouTube video? What (beside the quoted texts from the Quran) were your sources for this op?
No other source needed but for the Quran itself.
 
I have read the Quran from cover to cover. I have done the same many, many times with the Bible. As a Christian, I believe anyone and everyone who does not have Jesus, the anointed one of God, as both their Lord and their Savior through who alone salvation from sin is found is headed for eternal destruction. Do not misconstrue my posts as support for the Quran.

The problems with this op are...
  • Selective use of the Quran results on false witness.
  • Over-generalizing selective use is a logical fallacy.
  • Implying violent content in a book promotes violence in the readers is a false cause fallacy.

I could probably find a verse in the Bible that matches every verse in the Quran cited in this op. Were I to do so, would you then conclude Christianity is not peaceful and the Bible promotes violence?
I challenge you. Repeat, challenge you, to find anything in the sayings of Jesus or the NT that comes any where near the orders to war and violence in the Quran. As Ive already mentioned all of the NT verses you have quoted are either allegorical or you have taken them out of context. But when Ive got more time I will break them down and explain them for you.

Let me repeat -
The FACT remains. The Quran directly orders Muslims to war and Mohamad was a War Lord / a man of the sword.
The FACT remains. Jesus never ordered his believers to war. Jesus was a pacifist.

You are guilty of selective use of the Bible, over-generalizing selective use as a logical fallacy and Implying violent content in the Bible that promotes violence in the readers as a false cause fallacy. The same is not true regarding my quoting of the Quran which I will explain when I have more time.
 
I challenge you. Repeat, challenge you, to find anything in the sayings of Jesus or the NT that comes any where near the orders to war and violence in the Quran.
Already did and it was ignored or dismissed.
 
False witness is still false witness even if it is borne against an enemy. God hates false witness (Pr. 6:16-19). Paul walked into a pagan world and wrote extensively about the truth of Christ relevant to all those paganisms. The New Testament writers occasionally quoted pagan religious views but they never once did what you've done in these ops. Don't let the Quran or Islam be a distraction. It's clear from the post history there is an animosity toward Islam and the need to express it but not discuss it is felt. Neither the Quran nor Islam have anything to do with your final destination in Christ.

See you in the next op.
 
False witness is still false witness even if it is borne against an enemy. God hates false witness (Pr. 6:16-19). Paul walked into a pagan world and wrote extensively about the truth of Christ relevant to all those paganisms. The New Testament writers occasionally quoted pagan religious views but they never once did what you've done in these ops. Don't let the Quran or Islam be a distraction. It's clear from the post history there is an animosity toward Islam and the need to express it but not discuss it is felt. Neither the Quran nor Islam have anything to do with your final destination in Christ.

See you in the next op.
No false witness about it. Just read the Quran and hadith for yourself. Any Muslim or any such person as yourself who does not represent the original documents of Islam, or the violent life of Mohamad, honestly is guilty of false witness.

Do you accuse Jesus and the Bible writers of false witness when they make similar statements as to mine ? Read the below verses. Particularly the first one which I think is pertinent to you –

Luke 6:26 26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

Deuteronomy 18:20 - 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

Paul warned of these days: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Ezekiel 13:9 - 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

Jesus responded: “Take heed that no man deceive you.

Jesus cautioned several times that prior to His Second Coming, “many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many” (Matt. 24:11).

Yes Paul told us “to be all things to all people.” That is true. However Jesus and the NT writers also proclaimed truth at the expense of ‘cultural sensitivity’. That’s why John the Baptist was executed. That’s why Jesus was crucified. Ultimately that’s why all the NT writers were matred. They all challenged the cultural norms of the day.

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

The Quran and hadith are clear. Truth is truth Joseph. You are too sensitive to hurting peoples feelings rather than promoting truth. Where truth lies justice also lies.
 
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