Israel in prophecy?

Unbound68

Well-known member
How many here believe the creation of Israel as a nation again in 1948 fulfills prophecy?

And how many here believe the nation of Israel is seen in the book of Revelation?
 
I believe the authors of the canonical Gospels intended us to look for nation Israel’s return as a sign based on a limited number of verses which parallel the Dead Sea Scroll predictions.

For example, “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) is a direct reference to the rebirth of an independent nation Israel, free from Gentile rule. The same prediction is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls in association with the return of Christ.

Israel lost its independence around 41 BC and never regained it until 1948 CE. The last true independent monarch of Israel was Queen Salome around 67 BC. The Romans subsequently intervened while her two sons fought for power. The actual historical Yeshua who led Jewish-christians was killed during this time per the Talmud and Dead Sea Scrolls, —the “anointed one cutoff” according to the book of Daniel followed by the “destruction of the city” (Daniel 9:26) in 70 CE.

But before you look up in the sky for a pegasus mounted by a glowing human and sword sticking out of his mouth throwing fireballs to earth, let me point out that the return in clouds is a metaphor for return in the flesh for the clouds hide the sun as the flesh hides the holy spirit or intellectual sun. To wit, the Messiah returns as a human, for a specific generation, just as he has manifest himself throughout human history. Not a political one but a moral one to turn the hearts and minds to God.
 
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For example, “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) is a direct reference to the rebirth of an independent nation Israel, free from Gentile rule. The same prediction is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls in association with the return of Christ.
This is not true. Jerusalem is not "Israel." Moreover Jerusalem is still
trampled underfoot by the Gentiles
in that it is by no means free from Islamic control. The municipal authority of east Jerusalem is the Palestinian authority, although security is handled by Israel. East Jerusalem remains the mooted capital of the Palestinian State. So sorry, Luke 21:24 is not fulfilled in respect of East Jerusalem.

Many commentators believe that "the times of the Gentiles" refers to their evangelization and reception into the church, putting a completely different interpretation on it. Jews have been living in Jerusalem for a very long time now. They were there long before 1948.
 
This is not true. Jerusalem is not "Israel." Moreover Jerusalem is still

in that it is by no means free from Islamic control. The municipal authority of east Jerusalem is the Palestinian authority, although security is handled by Israel. East Jerusalem remains the mooted capital of the Palestinian State. So sorry, Luke 21:24 is not fulfilled in respect of East Jerusalem.

Many commentators believe that "the times of the Gentiles" refers to their evangelization and reception into the church, putting a completely different interpretation on it. Jews have been living in Jerusalem for a very long time now. They were there long before 1948.
The historical fact remains that the nation Israel rules itself today. It is predominantly a Jewish state for Jewish people. Before 1948 there was no nation Israel for over two thousand years because the territory was subsumed by one Gentile nation or another, beginning with the Romans around 41BC when Mark Antony appointed Herod to rule the territory under Roman authority.

That is the historical facts. Nation Israel was “trampled by the Gentiles” for over two thousand years until now. They rule themselves now, just as the Bible and Dead Sea Scrolls predicted would happen. “The times of the Gentiles” has been fulfilled. Presumably, it is time for God’s kingdom to come. Look for the sign(s).

Your point about Palestinian claims to east jerusalem and Islamic influence are distractions from the general idea that nation Israel rules itself rather than be ruled by Gentiles.

As you have probably figured out by now, I put little to no weight upon what Christian commentators think. I investigate the facts for myself and come to my own conclusion based upon right reason. Christian commentators are like the scribes and the Pharisees, the blind leading the blind. Having no idea what scriptures mean.

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day?
Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment?
For as soon as Zion was in labor
she brought forth her children.
 
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The historical fact remains that the nation Israel rules itself today. It is predominantly a Jewish state for Jewish people. Before 1948 there was no nation Israel for over two thousand years because the territory was subsumed by one Gentile nation or another, beginning with the Romans around 41BC when Mark Antony appointed Herod to rule the territory under Roman authority.

That is the historical facts. Nation Israel was “trampled by the Gentiles” for over two thousand years until now. They rule themselves now, just as the Bible and Dead Sea Scrolls predicted would happen. “The times of the Gentiles” has been fulfilled. Presumably, it is time for God’s kingdom to come. Look for the sign(s).

Your point about Palestinian claims to east jerusalem and Islamic influence are distractions from the general idea that nation Israel rules itself rather than be ruled by Gentiles.

As you have probably figured out by now, I put little to no weight upon what Christian commentators think. I investigate the facts for myself and come to my own conclusion based upon right reason. Christian commentators are like the scribes and the Pharisees, the blind leading the blind. Having no idea what scriptures mean.

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day?
Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment?
For as soon as Zion was in labor
she brought forth her children.
As far as I know you are not a Christian, but a syncretist, one who assimilates many traditions or beliefs into one person or system.

A Christian will respect other Christians, which you have a problem with. As for prophecy, it's very difficult as regards things still to be fulfilled.

But, Islamic control of East Jerusalem is not an illusion but a reality. And the Luke prophecy refers to Jerusalem, not Israel. Israel is not synonymous with Jerusalem. One example of the lack of Israeli control over Jurusalem is the temple mount, upon which there are Islamic buildings which have been there for over a thousand years, the oldest extant Islamic structures in the world. They are not going anywhere anytime soon.

I don't believe the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled.

And what Israel is currently, is not any kind of theocracy, in the nature of how it was in the days of the law.

It is a secular state, in thrall to secular values. Religious parties are a minority. Israel is a nation of ba'al worshippers. Effectively a gentile nation inhabited by the descendants of the Jews, or even converts.

To say that ancient Israel has been resurrected is simply not true; and besides which, in prophecy, Israel stands for the people of God. If they are not the people of God, all that can be said for them is that they are "of Israel" but "not Israel." Rom 9:6.
 
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It is a secular state, in thrall to secular values. Religious parties are a minority. Israel is a nation of ba'al worshippers. Effectively a gentile nation inhabited by the descendants of the Jews, or even converts.
Futurists like to apply several “regathering” prophecies from the OT to Israel mainly just because the words “latter days” appear somewhere in the chapter….a phrase that appears several times in the OT, yet doesn’t have the time right before Christ’s return in view at all.

Ezek 38:8-14 speaks of regathered Israel living safely without walls. That obviously isn’t the case.

To say that ancient Israel has been resurrected is simply not true;
Agree. God’s promise of regathering was conditioned on their repentance and obedience. That they rejected God’s Son is proof 1948 means nothing prophetically.

and besides which, in prophecy, Israel stands for the people of God. If they are not the people of God, all that can be said for them is that they are "of Israel" but "not Israel." Rom 9:6.
Amen! The time of God’s dealing with Israel after the flesh ended with their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah (the stoning of Stephen and Saul becoming Paul signifying the end of Daniel’s 70 weeks.
 
Futurists like to apply several “regathering” prophecies from the OT to Israel mainly just because the words “latter days” appear somewhere in the chapter….a phrase that appears several times in the OT, yet doesn’t have the time right before Christ’s return in view at all.

Ezek 38:8-14 speaks of regathered Israel living safely without walls. That obviously isn’t the case.


Agree. God’s promise of regathering was conditioned on their repentance and obedience. That they rejected God’s Son is proof 1948 means nothing prophetically.


Amen! The time of God’s dealing with Israel after the flesh ended with their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah (the stoning of Stephen and Saul becoming Paul signifying the end of Daniel’s 70 weeks.

Exactly, these people seem to neglect what Moses prophecied of in Deuternomy 30:1-10, for he very clearly revealed that in order for Israel to get their land back from God (not from the United Nations and America) but from God, they would have to repent and turn back to God with all of their hearts.

So then, there is simply no way they could have done this while continuing to reject Jesus as their Messiah and King.

I personly believe that the United Nations and America was led to give them their land back by the apostate churches who influenced them to do it and therefore they have actually caused much of the conflict that has been going on in the M. E. ever since then and because of it

We need to quit playing God and let God be God to make the decisions over the rise and fall of worldly kingdoms and also who will be chosen to rule over them and who will be removed from ruling over them and as per Daniel also reveals that God is in chapters 2 and 4.

Actually Jesus said this also in Act 1 before he was taken up into heaven, "it is not for you to know the times and seasons which God has put in HIS own power".

It reminds me of all of the problems that Abraham brought upon himself and his seed in the first place because he didn't let God be God over when he would have the son that God promised him that he would have and which is where all of these problems started in the first place.

The churches need to quit trying to make things happen and the reason why I believe they do this to start with, is because they don't see God working within them to truly bring about any changes in this world without them doing things by the flesh.

Because of this, they even attempt to legislate morality for unbelievers and make them obey God by law instead of by grace and all because there is no conviction coming from them that would cause those of the world to want to truly repent and believe in God.
 
As far as I know you are not a Christian, but a syncretist, one who assimilates many traditions or beliefs into one person or system.

A Christian will respect other Christians, which you have a problem with. As for prophecy, it's very difficult as regards things still to be fulfilled.

But, Islamic control of East Jerusalem is not an illusion but a reality. And the Luke prophecy refers to Jerusalem, not Israel. Israel is not synonymous with Jerusalem. One example of the lack of Israeli control over Jurusalem is the temple mount, upon which there are Islamic buildings which have been there for over a thousand years, the oldest extant Islamic structures in the world. They are not going anywhere anytime soon.

I don't believe the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled.

And what Israel is currently, is not any kind of theocracy, in the nature of how it was in the days of the law.

It is a secular state, in thrall to secular values. Religious parties are a minority. Israel is a nation of ba'al worshippers. Effectively a gentile nation inhabited by the descendants of the Jews, or even converts.
The fact nation Israel is a secular state makes it seem impossible that God is doing anything with them, but those are the odds God seems to glory the most in, —impossible odds. Therefore, I expect the message of Good News to be accepted by more and more Jews just as it was accepted over two-thousand years ago. But not towards traditional christianity, instead towards the original jewish-christian teachings found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which parallel gnostic christian teachings. Traditional christianity remains clueless to what they believed so I dont expect people like you to even recognize it when it happens. To people like you it will seem like a false system of belief.

In that scenario, everything happens just as it was predicted to happen: the Good News went from the original jewish-christians to the nations (Gentiles) followed by apostasy (catholic church), and subsequently returned to the nation Israel (now restored through the Dead Sea Scrolls). It is no coincidence that the nation Israel considers the Dead Sea Scrolls to be the greatest archaeological discovery in the history of their nation. Whereas Christians are claiming nothing to see, likely because the original jewish christians held gnostic tenets. Therefore, the more people like you reject what God is doing, will do among Jews the more prophecy is fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles are over, IMO. Their minds are darkened to God, to truth, to the spirit. The spirit will rise with the Jewish people.

To say that ancient Israel has been resurrected is simply not true; and besides which, in prophecy, Israel stands for the people of God. If they are not the people of God, all that can be said for them is that they are "of Israel" but "not Israel." Rom 9:6.
 
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The fact nation Israel is a secular state makes it seem impossible that God is doing anything with them, but those are the odds God seems to glory the most in, —impossible odds. Therefore, I expect the message of Good News to be accepted by more and more Jews just as it was accepted over two-thousand years ago. But not towards traditional christianity, instead towards the original jewish-christian teachings found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which parallel gnostic christian teachings. Traditional christianity remains clueless to what they believed so I dont expect people like you to even recognize it when it happens. To people like you it will seem like a false system of belief.
The Essenes had nothing to do with Christianity. They were a separatist cult. In fact they were likely heretical in the eyes of their fellow Jews for abandoning temple worship - something Jesus did not, neither the Jewish Christians, at least before AD70.

Jewish gnosticism (I don't know much about it) antedates Christianity. Judaism had been in close contact with Babylonian-Persian ideas from the Babylonian exile, and for nearly as long a period with Hellenistic ideas. Magic was also part of the doctrines and manifestations of gnosticism.

I accept there was an element of heretical Jewish Christian Gnosticism, notably Encratism, which offered a resemblance with the Essenes as to way of life, but outside of its heyday in the 2nd-5th centuries, it doesn't figure much. Although asceticism wormed its way into Gentile churches to a limited extent, and perhaps into some elements of the Christian priesthood, and especially into pseudo-manichaean dualist sects, it was always a minority practice outside of the dualist churches, such as Bogomils & Cathars that were repressed.

So beyond the historical legacy of High Trinitarian churches that flirted with the Encratite heresies and which developed ascetic and oppressive doctrines and practices appealing to minorities, sucgh as monks and nuns, and which persist, I'm not too clear what you're talking about. These are not going to appeal to modern Jewish Christians.
 
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Therefore, the more people like you reject what God is doing, will do among Jews the more prophecy is fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles are over, IMO. Their minds are darkened to God, to truth, to the spirit. The spirit will rise with the Jewish people.
No idea what you're talking about. I can see that Jews are being converted to Christ, which is the one benefit of a secular Jewish state, but doesn't mean to say that Israel today is any kind of theocracy, Christian or law based. Israel is just a secular state, and Jerusalem is not free of Islam. And non-Christian Jews are in the vast majority.
 
ISRAEL AND JUDAH – not rejoined as yet.

The Bible has over 160 instances in the same verse, where Israel and Judah are mentioned as different entities. It’s clear that they are not to be rejoined until after the Middle East is cleared and His people are regathered, judged and settled together in all of the Holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43

Mainstream Church teaching, especially Catholic, says that the Jews now in the Land are all Israel. Some teach Replacement theology, where their Church is now the new Israel.

Have they rejoined already? Josephus, the Jewish historian, circa 100AD, wrote that the 10 lost tribes were a great multitude, then living beyond the Euphrates River.
In the Talmud, Rabbi’s Akiva and Eliezer circa 200AD, discuss the question of when the 10 lost tribes would return. So, only Judah was present at that time.
At the establishment of the State of Israel, in 1948, the name was to have been Judah, but David Ben Gurion changed to Israel at the last minute.

So, we await the fulfilment of these prophecies;
Ezekiel 37:21-22 I am going to take the Israelites [the 2 tribes of Judah and the 10 tribes of Israel.] from their places of exile among the nations. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil. I shall make them a single nation in the Land and one leader will be over them all. No longer will they be two nations or divided into two Kingdoms. Ezekiel 20:32-38

Jeremiah 50:4-5 In those days and at that time [ after the land has been cleansed] The people of Israel and the people of Judah will come together and in tears go in search of their God. They will ask the way to Zion, turning towards her and saying; Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in everlasting covenant.

Hosea 1:11 The people of Judah and Israel will be reunited and will choose for themselves one leader. [This must be before the Return of Jesus]

Micah 7:8-10 My enemies, do not exult over me [ Israel] Though I have fallen, I will rise again. Though I sit in darkness, the Lord will be my light. Because I have sinned against the Lord I must bear His anger until He pleads my case, gives judgement and establishes my rights. Then my enemies will see it and be shamed – those who said “where is your God “. I will see their downfall, they will be trampled like mud on the streets.

Micah 7:11-12 The day for rebuilding and extending your boundaries will come. A day when Your people will return to the Land, from every sea and every mountain.

Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, Revelation 7:9-13

Zechariah 1:18-21 The four horns [ nations, peoples.] that scattered Judah and Israel.
Assyria, Babylon, Rome and now Islam.
The four smiths [destroyers] have come to overthrow them.

Hosea 2:23 [New] Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will love them and say to them:You are My people” and they will say “You are our God”. Romans 9:24-26
 
I believe the authors of the canonical Gospels intended us to look for nation Israel’s return as a sign based on a limited number of verses which parallel the Dead Sea Scroll predictions.

For example, “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) is a direct reference to the rebirth of an independent nation Israel, free from Gentile rule. The same prediction is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls in association with the return of Christ.

Israel lost its independence around 41 BC and never regained it until 1948 CE. The last true independent monarch of Israel was Queen Salome around 67 BC. The Romans subsequently intervened while her two sons fought for power. The actual historical Yeshua who led Jewish-christians was killed during this time per the Talmud and Dead Sea Scrolls, —the “anointed one cutoff” according to the book of Daniel followed by the “destruction of the city” (Daniel 9:26) in 70 CE.

But before you look up in the sky for a pegasus mounted by a glowing human and sword sticking out of his mouth throwing fireballs to earth, let me point out that the return in clouds is a metaphor for return in the flesh for the clouds hide the sun as the flesh hides the holy spirit or intellectual sun. To wit, the Messiah returns as a human, for a specific generation, just as he has manifest himself throughout human history. Not a political one but a moral one to turn the hearts and minds to God.
WOW!!! Make sure you do not take his mark on your right hand or forehead.
 
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