Israel's role in the Bible and the world

civic

Well-known member
Joel C. Rosenberg, founder, and chairman of The Joshua Fund interviews John MacArthur. Together, they discuss Israel's role in the Bible and the world.


 

Beloved

Active member
Civic, I pray that God leads everyone that loves Him and the Jews in the Nation of Israel, and the rest of CARM, come in here and submerge themselves in what you have posted. I believe He has blessed you because of this information you brought to us and I thank you.

I go to John's website every day. I think, we all need to pray for him as the devil must have him strongly in his sites.
 

civic

Well-known member
Civic, I pray that God leads everyone that loves Him and the Jews in the Nation of Israel, and the rest of CARM, come in here and submerge themselves in what you have posted. I believe He has blessed you because of this information you brought to us and I thank you.

I go to John's website every day. I think, we all need to pray for him as the devil must have him strongly in his sites.
Yes he is a great man of God and has been faithful all these years. I've been listening to him since the early 80's when I became born again. I use to tape all his sermons on a cassette player from the radio broadcasts lol.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Joel C. Rosenberg, founder, and chairman of The Joshua Fund interviews John MacArthur. Together, they discuss Israel's role in the Bible and the world.


Civic, who is Israel now according to the NT and especially from what Paul tells us in Romans chapter 9-11 and paying very close attention to what he says in chapter 11 about the single Olive Tree that Paul uses for an illustration to reveal this?

Or how about what Paul says in Ephesians 2:11-22?

Now so you don't get confused as to where I am going with this, Paul said the following in Romans 11:I "ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, WHOM HE FOREKNEW.

Notice the words "WHOM HE FOREKNEW" for God made promise to Abraham about two groups of his descendants, the one would be in number as the sand which is by the seashore and this represents the earthly whom God did not foreknow and therefore have no promise concerning heaven but only of the earth.

However the other group were to be in number as the stars of heaven and which represents the promised election by grace and those who were foreknown by God and who are to receive the heavenly promise therefore.

So then, which Israel is Paul focusing on in Romans chapters 9-11 and also in Ephesians 2:11-22 and what does he tell us about them?


Also, would you really and truly say that what Moses told the children of Israel would be the condition for them receiving their land back from God, happened in 1948 or 1967?


Let's look at what Moses actually said and see if they actually met those conditions in 1948 or 1967?


Deuteronomy 30:10

1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.


Did Israel do what is in the bold Red in order to receive the promise of God in the bold orange from the hand of God in 1948 or 1967 or even yet at all Civic?

Now pay close attention for here is where it gets really good, for you will be familiar with this scripture from Paul's words about this in Romans 10:8-10.


11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.



Romans 10:6-10

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


So Civic, did they repent and return to the Lord with all their hearts and accept their Messiah and also the Kingdom that they even asked him when it would come in Luke 17:20 and which he told them was already in their midst?

Luke 17:20-21

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”


15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


So then Civic, did Israel fulfill the conditions that Moses said that they would have to fulfill in order to receive their land back from the hand of God himself?

For their receiving it back from the United Nations and the USA is not the fulfillment of the prophesied promise Civic and it can't be because the majority of them have not returned to the Lord and obeyed Deuteronomy 30:11-14, for it would require them to obey Romans 10:6-10 if they truly did.

I can assure you of this Civic, that it will only be the Children of the promise and election by grace that ever will obey it and never again the whole nation like many in your churches are falsely teaching will happen at the end of the age.
 

Tonyg

Member
Excellent post Civic. I don't know if you have considered the connection between Deuteronomy 30:1 and Daniel's situation and prayer of Daniel chapter nine. If you have not I encourage you to do so it may open a window of inside and understanding.

I understand Deuteronomy 28 and 29 to refer to the Babylonian captivity. It is from within the Babylonian captivity that Daniel recognizes that they have not remembered the curses and the blessings of the law of Moses which place them in the Babylonian captivity, neither have they made their confession in expectation to be released from captivity and return to the land.

After Daniel's prayer or actually in the end of his prayer the angel comes to reward him for his faith and understanding and his prayer of confession for the nation {period} but the angel brings a prophecy of another 483 years until Messiah comes and brings the new law which circumcises the heart as depicted in verse six.

I believe the angel is interjecting 483 years between verse 5 and verse 6 of Deuteronomy chapter 30.

As you rightly noted Paul affirms that Deuteronomy 30 is fulfilled in the covenant of Christ.

It's quite easy to understand the Perry stones, Joel rosenberg's, macarthur's, walvords , Jeremiah's, etc if one reads the Bible as if it written to humanity.

But the old testament prophets did not prophesy to humanity in general though all humanity can observe their recordings, the prophets prophesied within and two the nation of Moses.

There are illusions and prophecies of the everlasting covenant which applies to all humanity, such as the prophecy of the seed promised to Abraham which would bless all nations, and the covenant of Messiah, Emmanuel, Shiloh, etc etc.

But in the book of Deuteronomy, when Moses issued the stipulations and promise the blessings and the cursings of the law, he also prophesied the latter end of that nation and the law at the time when a new profit like on to Moses, Deuteronomy 18:15 to 19, would arrive and bring the very words of God. Deuteronomy chapter 31 and 32 especially are part of the verses in the book of Deuteronomy which prophesy and give characterizations and depictions of the event in the latter days of that Nation {period}. It is two and about the people of this temporary Nation and the people who would start the new nation under Christ which the prophets prophesy about as Peter had stated in Acts three that all the prophets from Samuel onward have foretold these days, the days in which they were living.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Believe whatever you want I could care less.
You ought to start caring Civic, for you are believing falsely about a lot of things in the Bible and don't think that you are going to be delivered by a pre trib rapture either, for that is just another of many false doctrines that your churches have been teaching.


1 Corinthians 15:22-26 + 51-58

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ (past tense), the firstfruits (Matthew 27:51-53 paste tense); then, when he comes, those who belong to him (only one left for the future). 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH.



Death being put under the feet of Jesus doesn't have so much to do with those who death has already claimed and have died Civic, but in order for those alive not to have to die, it makes all the difference in the world and that is what Paul is saying here and this proves that the pre trib rapture doctrine is totally false.

For Paul very clearly tells us it in this context that it will be at the end when all other enemies of God associated with sin are first destroyed so that the last enemy of death can be also for his people, thus the last enemy, the last trumpet and bingo the resurrection followed by the rapture.

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Civic, who is Israel now according to the NT and especially from what Paul tells us in Romans chapter 9-11 and paying very close attention to what he says in chapter 11 about the single Olive Tree that Paul uses for an illustration to reveal this?

Or how about what Paul says in Ephesians 2:11-22?

Now so you don't get confused as to where I am going with this, Paul said the following in Romans 11:I "ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, WHOM HE FOREKNEW.

Notice the words "WHOM HE FOREKNEW" for God made promise to Abraham about two groups of his descendants, the one would be in number as the sand which is by the seashore and this represents the earthly whom God did not foreknow and therefore have no promise concerning heaven but only of the earth.

However the other group were to be in number as the stars of heaven and which represents the promised election by grace and those who were foreknown by God and who are to receive the heavenly promise therefore.

So then, which Israel is Paul focusing on in Romans chapters 9-11 and also in Ephesians 2:11-22 and what does he tell us about them?


Also, would you really and truly say that what Moses told the children of Israel would be the condition for them receiving their land back from God, happened in 1948 or 1967?


Let's look at what Moses actually said and see if they actually met those conditions in 1948 or 1967?


Deuteronomy 30:10

1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.


Did Israel do what is in the bold Red in order to receive the promise of God in the bold orange from the hand of God in 1948 or 1967 or even yet at all Civic?

Now pay close attention for here is where it gets really good, for you will be familiar with this scripture from Paul's words about this in Romans 10:8-10.


11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.



Romans 10:6-10

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


So Civic, did they repent and return to the Lord with all their hearts and accept their Messiah and also the Kingdom that they even asked him when it would come in Luke 17:20 and which he told them was already in their midst?

Luke 17:20-21

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”


15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


So then Civic, did Israel fulfill the conditions that Moses said that they would have to fulfill in order to receive their land back from the hand of God himself?

For their receiving it back from the United Nations and the USA is not the fulfillment of the prophesied promise Civic and it can't be because the majority of them have not returned to the Lord and obeyed Deuteronomy 30:11-14, for it would require them to obey Romans 10:6-10 if they truly did.

I can assure you of this Civic, that it will only be the Children of the promise and election by grace that ever will obey it and never again the whole nation like many in your churches are falsely teaching will happen at the end of the age.
FYI, Amos 9:15 is about the Jews coming Back PERMANENTLY ( Never to be Uprooted or Scattered among the nations of the World again ) and not about Moses's people's children that eventually got to live in the Land that God gave them BECAUSE those people got Uprooted ( Scattered ) and were NOT Permanently in the Land! 1948 AD is in FACT the Start date of Amos 9:15 because they will NEVER get scatted again! Dan.9:27 is set aside for the left behind Jews to come back to God and accept their Messiah that they rejected back in 33 AD! Then All Israel will be saved ( at Jesus Post Trib. return ) at the END of those final 7 years of Daniel ( that has the GREAT Trib. in the Middle of that 7 )! The Jews that have already converted and became part of the ONE New Man ( Both Jews & Gentiles together ) in the book of Ephesians will go at the Caught Up of 1 Thess.4:14-17, which happens BEFORE Dan.9:27 transpires as 2 Thess.2:6-8 clearly tells us that the one holding back the MOL or AC that reveals himself by confirming the covenant ( Peace Treaty in the Middle East ) in Dan.9:27 cannot do so till someone ( He ) gets Taken ( Caught Up ) out of the way! The He ( Some one ) doing the Holding back is none other than the Omnipresent ( Psalm 139:7 ) Holy Spirit, WORKING Through the Born again Believers ( the True Church or Bride of Christ ) to keep evil in check! Yes He will still be present on earth during those 7 years of Daniel in order to seal the 144 thousand left behind Jews, BUT the Ministry ( Bride of Christ ) He was WORKING Through ( with His Spirit dwelling in their Temples/Bodies as per 1 Cor.6:19 ) will be in Heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb ( Jesus Christ- Rev.19:7-8 )! They will Follow Him back to earth ( Rev.19:14 ) at the END of Dan.9:27, as pert of those Armies from Heaven! ------------- Thus Civic was 100% Spot On ( Context ) and could care less about your wrong Context by try-ing to use the people of Moses' time that get Uprooted or scattered and therefore are NOT the ones that Amos 9:15 are talking about!
 
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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
FYI, Amos 9:15 is about the Jews coming Back PERMANENTLY ( Never to be Uprooted or Scattered among the nations of the World again ) and not about Moses's people's children that eventually got to live in the Land that God gave them BECAUSE those people got Uprooted ( Scattered ) and were NOT Permanently in the Land! 1948 AD is in FACT the Start date of Amos 9:15 because they will NEVER get scatted again! Dan.9:27 is set aside for the left behind Jews to come back to God and accept their Messiah that they rejected back in 33 AD! Then All Israel will be saved ( at Jesus Post Trib. return ) at the END of those final 7 years of Daniel ( that has the GREAT Trib. in the Middle of that 7 )! The Jews that have already converted and became part of the ONE New Man ( Both Jews & Gentiles together ) in the book of Ephesians will go at the Caught Up of 1 Thess.4:14-17, which happens BEFORE Dan.9:27 transpires as 2 Thess.2:6-8 clearly tells us that the one holding back the MOL or AC that reveals himself by confirming the covenant ( Peace Treaty in the Middle East ) in Dan.9:27 cannot do so till someone ( He ) gets Taken ( Caught Up ) out of the way! The He ( Some one ) doing the Holding back is none other than the Omnipresent ( Psalm 139:7 ) Holy Spirit, WORKING Through the Born again Believers ( the True Church or Bride of Christ ) to keep evil in check! Yes He will still be present on earth during those 7 years of Daniel in order to seal the 144 thousand left behind Jews, BUT the Ministry ( Bride of Christ ) He was WORKING Through ( with His Spirit dwelling in their Temples/Bodies as per 1 Cor.6:19 ) will be in Heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb ( Jesus Christ- Rev.19:7-8 )! They will Follow Him back to earth ( Rev.19:14 ) at the END of Dan.9:27, as pert of those Armies from Heaven! ------------- Thus Civic was 100% Spot On ( Context ) and could care less about your wrong Context by try-ing to use the people of Moses' time that get Uprooted or scattered and therefore are NOT the ones that Amos 9:15 are talking about!
I am through arguing with you about this Rod.ney, so you go right ahead and continue in your false doctrines about it like I know you will and make my day dude.

For I don't know of anyone who deserves to be deceived about Eschatology and prophecy more than you, for you are a flesh follower Rod.ney.
 
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rod.ney

Well-known member
I am through arguing with you about this Rod.ney, so you go right ahead and continue in your false doctrines about it like I know you will and make my day dude.

For I don't know of anyone who deserves to be deceived about Eschatology and prophecy more than you, for you are a flesh follower Rod.ney.
The REAL reason you are THROUGH about it is the FACT that Amos 9:15 contradicts your Twisted ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) say so about Hebrews ( in Moses' time ) that went to the Land of milk & honey ( that God gave them ) and then got Uprooted ( Scattered )! The ONLY time in History that the Jews came Back to ( the Land God gave them ) Never get Uprooted ( scattered ) again started to happen on May 14, 1948 AD! Thus you remain 100% rebuked as per 2 Tim.3:16 and Civic & myself remain Spot on concerning those Posted scriptures! Thus if you are unable to Prove that they were PERMANENTLY in that land ( as Per Amos 9:15 ) at ANY time Prior to 1948 AD, then the Case closed! Here's that scripture that rebukes you and your say so ------------------

Amos 9:15​

New International Version​

15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.
 

Tonyg

Member
Read Barnes commentary.


Joh 10:28-29 KJV 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 14:3 KJV And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Joh 17:15 KJV I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
 
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Tonyg

Member
The everlasting land is the land where Jesus lives. The land where Jesus lives is within those who receive him as living God and abide within him and he in them, never to be plucked out of their land.

Is Amos 9:15 talking of the same as Hosea chapter 1?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The REAL reason you are THROUGH about it is the FACT that Amos 9:15 contradicts your Twisted ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) say so about Hebrews ( in Moses' time ) that went to the Land of milk & honey ( that God gave them ) and then got Uprooted ( Scattered )! The ONLY time in History that the Jews came Back to ( the Land God gave them ) Never get Uprooted ( scattered ) again started to happen on May 14, 1948 AD! Thus you remain 100% rebuked as per 2 Tim.3:16 and Civic & myself remain Spot on concerning those Posted scriptures! Thus if you are unable to Prove that they were PERMANENTLY in that land ( as Per Amos 9:15 ) at ANY time Prior to 1948 AD, then the Case closed! Here's that scripture that rebukes you and your say so ------------------

Amos 9:15​

New International Version​

15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.
Rolf, the Israel that this is speaking of, is NT Israel of the Spirit both Jew and Gentile.

It is the same single Israel that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 and using the figure of the single Olive Tree as referring to it also.

For Paul very clearly reveals in that text, that both the natural branches of the Jews who were cut off in unbelief but who repent and believe are grafted back into it and also the wild olive branches of the Gentiles who believe and repent likewise are grafted into to make one single Olive Tree of Spiritual NT Israel.

It is not speaking of Israel of the OT and the flesh only dude but make my day and by all means continue in your false doctrine Rod.ney, for I will see the day when you are going to eat of what you sowed with your false doctrines and I can't even begin to tell you how pleasurable that will be for me.

Deuteronomy 30:30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Get it straight dude, for the whole ethnic nation of Israel never returned to the Lord in 1948 nor in 1967, for if they had, then they would have accepted Jesus as their Messiah but they never did period and therefore they haven't fulfilled the words of Moses above to receive their land back from God himself.

But the elect of Israel will by the end of this age and they will after this be returned to their land in the New heaven and earth as the New Jerusalem.

For you are not just some unwilling ignorant unbeliever but you have knowledge of the Bible albeit a deliberately and willful adulterated knowledge of the Bible and you refuse any correction from the scriptures when someone gives it to you also and therefore you will deserve what you will reap when it finally comes.


Rolf, therefore Civic and yourself indeed remain spot on deceived and from how it stands now, you will most likely remain thus right up until the end also.
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Rolf, the Israel that this is speaking of, is NT Israel of the Spirit both Jew and Gentile.

It is the same single Israel that Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 and using the figure of the single Olive Tree as referring to it also.

For Paul very clearly reveals in that text, that both the natural branches of the Jews who were cut off in unbelief but who repent and believe are grafted back into it and also the wild olive branches of the Gentiles who believe and repent likewise are grafted into to make one single Olive Tree of Spiritual NT Israel.

It is not speaking of Israel of the OT and the flesh only dude but make my day and by all means continue in your false doctrine Rod.ney, for I will see the day when you are going to eat of what you sowed with your false doctrines and I can't even begin to tell you how pleasurable that will be for me.

Deuteronomy 30:30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Get it straight dude, for the whole ethnic nation of Israel never returned to the Lord in 1948 nor in 1967, for if they had, then they would have accepted Jesus as their Messiah but they never did period and therefore they haven't fulfilled the words of Moses above to receive their land back from God himself.

But the elect of Israel will by the end of this age and they will after this be returned to their land in the New heaven and earth as the New Jerusalem.

For you are not just some unwilling ignorant unbeliever but you have knowledge of the Bible albeit a deliberately and willful adulterated knowledge of the Bible and you refuse any correction from the scriptures when someone gives it to you also and therefore you will deserve what you will reap when it finally comes.


Rolf, therefore Civic and yourself indeed remain spot on deceived and from how it stands now, you will most likely remain thus right up until the end also.
FYI I stated that it ( 1948 AD ) is the Start of Amos 9:15! At Jesus Post Trib. return ( at the End of Dan.9:27 ) then All Israel will be saved ( Grafted back in ) because that Great Trib. in the MIDDLE of that seven brings them back to God! Some have already converted and became the One New man of Ephesians ( the Bride of Christ ) that will get Caught Up in 1 Thess.4:14-17 Before Dan.9:27 happens when the MOL or AC of 2 Thess.2: 1-8 can then REVEAL himself as he then gets to confirm that covenant ( Peace Treaty in the Middle East ) with many! Case closed on your Twisted views as per 2 Peter 3:16! Civic and Myself are Spot on with those posted scriptures before your Twist is forced upon them! It's not a Spiritual return at the END of Dan.9:27! It is a in Person return of Christ in His Supernatural Flesh & Bone resurrection body because Zec.14:16 says all those survivors of the Great Trib. will go each year to Jerusalem to Worship the King ( the resurrected returned Christ )! His return is shown in Rev.19:11-21 & 20:1-6 to REIGN for 1000 years with those beheaded Trib. saints that He then resurrrects!
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
FYI I stated that it ( 1948 AD ) is the Start of Amos 9:15! At Jesus Post Trib. return ( at the End of Dan.9:27 ) then All Israel will be saved ( Grafted back in ) because that Great Trib. in the MIDDLE of that seven brings them back to God! Some have already converted and became the One New man of Ephesians ( the Bride of Christ ) that will get Caught Up in 1 Thess.4:14-17 Before Dan.9:27 happens when the MOL or AC of 2 Thess.2: 1-8 can then REVEAL himself as he then gets to confirm that covenant ( Peace Treaty in the Middle East ) with many! Case closed on your Twisted views as per 2 Peter 3:16! Civic and Myself are Spot on with those posted scriptures before your Twist is forced upon them! It's not a Spiritual return at the END of Dan.9:27! It is a in Person return of Christ in His Supernatural Flesh & Bone resurrection body because Zec.14:16 says all those survivors of the Great Trib. will go each year to Jerusalem to Worship the King ( the resurrected returned Christ )! His return is shown in Rev.19:11-21 & 20:1-6 to REIGN for 1000 years with those beheaded Trib. saints that He then resurrrects!
Paul never said that all of Israel of the flesh would be saved and if you knew how to read Romans chapters 9-11 in their proper context you would have seen that also.

For Paul started out in Romans 9 clearly revealing that he was not referring to Israel of the flesh who are the whole ethnic nation but only a remnant from every generation until Jesus comes and only those children out of Israel of the flesh who are God's election and predestination by grace therefore.

He made it perfectly clear that he was only speaking of them and then also included the Gentiles into that number in Romans 9 as well.


Again, in chapter 11, Paul is using one single Olive Tree to express what Israel he is speaking of throughout those three chapters and he very clearly reveals that the wild olive branches of the Gentiles would also be grafted into that same single Olive Tree of Israel and there is no way around this either.


Therefore, if you want to continue to argue against the truth about this, then go argue with someone who really cares if you will ever come out of your apostasy Rod.ney, for I don't at all period.
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Paul never said that all of Israel of the flesh would be saved and if you knew how to read Romans chapters 9-11 in their proper context you would have seen that also.

For Paul started out in Romans 9 clearly revealing that he was not referring to Israel of the flesh who are the whole ethnic nation but only a remnant from every generation until Jesus comes and only those children out of Israel of the flesh who are God's election and predestination by grace therefore.

He made it perfectly clear that he was only speaking of them and then also included the Gentiles into that number in Romans 9 as well.


Again, in chapter 11, Paul is using one single Olive Tree to express what Israel he is speaking of throughout those three chapters and he very clearly reveals that the wild olive branches of the Gentiles would also be grafted into that same single Olive Tree of Israel and there is no way around this either.


Therefore, if you want to continue to argue against the truth about this, then go argue with someone who really cares if you will ever come out of your apostasy Rod.ney, for I don't at all period.
Yes and the ones of the Flesh that do not convert during those 7 years of Daniel 9:27 will NOT be any of those survivors of Zech.14:16! Paul NEVER said that None of those of the flesh would Never convert ( like He did ) - Paul was of the Flesh as Saul and then converted! Thus like I CORRECTLY stated All of Israel will be Saved at His Post-Trib. return! Case closed!
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Yes and the ones of the Flesh that do not convert during those 7 years of Daniel 9:27 will NOT be any of those survivors of Zech.14:16! Paul NEVER said that None of those of the flesh would Never convert ( like He did ) - Paul was of the Flesh as Saul and then converted! Thus like I CORRECTLY stated All of Israel will be Saved at His Post-Trib. return! Case closed!
Only the elect remnant of ethnic Israel will be saved and they are being saved right now and will all be saved right along with the full number of Gentiles and not after all of the Gentiles are saved like your churches are falsely teaching about Paul's words in Romans 11:25-26.

The blindness that Paul speaks of is only referring to that part of Israel who are the elect remnant according to the promise and as per Romans 9 and from every generation and that are yet to be saved before Jesus returns.

Furthermore, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in" he is not saying that only after all of the Gentiles are saved will those of the elect who are still blind be saved but rather that as the Gentiles come to their full number so will Israel elect that are blind.


This is yet another of your false teachings Rod.ney, for Paul very clearly tells us that it will be through the elect of Israel's envy of the Gentiles who get saved, that they will also come to salvation and upon this Paul said "I magnify my office", for he understood that it was God's plan to use the Gentiles to bring his own people and elect of Israel to salvation.

The deliverer Jesus Christ therefore comes out of Zion the church and turns ethnic Israel of the election back to God and that is what Paul is saying in this passage.
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Only the elect remnant of ethnic Israel will be saved and they are being saved right now and will all be saved right along with the full number of Gentiles and not after all of the Gentiles are saved like your churches are falsely teaching about Paul's words in Romans 11:25-26.

The blindness that Paul speaks of is only referring to that part of Israel who are the elect remnant according to the promise and as per Romans 9 and from every generation and that are yet to be saved before Jesus returns.

Furthermore, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in" he is not saying that only after all of the Gentiles are saved will those of the elect who are still blind be saved but rather that as the Gentiles come to their full number so will Israel elect that are blind.


This is yet another of your false teachings Rod.ney, for Paul very clearly tells us that it will be through the elect of Israel's envy of the Gentiles who get saved, that they will also come to salvation and upon this Paul said "I magnify my office", for he understood that it was God's plan to use the Gentiles to bring his own people and elect of Israel to salvation.

The deliverer Jesus Christ therefore comes out of Zion the church and turns ethnic Israel of the election back to God and that is what Paul is saying in this passage.
FYI the ones saved RIGHT Now are a Part of the One New Man in Ephesians ( Both Jew & Gentile together as that one new man - the Bride of Christ )! They will get Caught Up ( Raptured ) in 1 Thess.4:17 before the MOL ( AC ) in 2 Thess.2:1-8 reveals himself as he kicks off Daniels final 7 years by confirming the covenant with many ( because they are the ones that the Holy Spirit WORKS Through to keep evil in check till they get TAKEN { Caught Up } out of the MOL ( AC ) way ! Then at the END of that 7 ( At Jesus Post Trib. return to REIGN for 1000 Years ) " All Israel will be saved " ( the survivors of Zech.14:16 ) that will go to Jerusalem each year ( of those 1000 years in Rev.20:4-6 ) to Worship the returned King ( the resurrected Christ { Acts 1:11 in conjunction with Rev.19:11-21 & 20:1-6 } in His Supernatural Flesh & Bone resurrection body - Luke 24:39 ) in person! Case closed on your Twisted ( 2 Peter ) view! Those posted scriptures rebuke your say so as per 2 Tim.3:16! Civic and myself are Spot on concerning those posted scriptures BEFORE you add your Twist to them!
 
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