It is impossible for Arminians to give God the glory for their "salvation"

[squirrelyguy]

Where does the Bible teach that salvation is an "offer"?
No rationalizations, please... Only Scripture citations.

I could cite verses like Rev. 3:20 ("Behold, I stand at the door and knock...") or Isaiah 55:1 ("Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.") But would that convince you? Or are you looking for verses that literally use the word "offer" in regards to salvation? The book of Hebrews repeatedly speaks of Christ "offering" Himself as a sacrifice for sins. But would that convince you either?

 

[Theo1689]

I could cite verses like Rev. 3:20 ("Behold, I stand at the door and knock...")

And you would be demonstrating your ignorance of Scripture and contex.
Rev. 3:20 is a message to believers, not some "invitation" to unbelievers.

or Isaiah 55:1 ("Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.")

Again, no evidence that this is some "invitation.
Failed again.

But would that convince you? Or are you looking for verses that literally use the word "offer" in regards to salvation?

You seem to think it's unreasonable to demand Scriptures that teach the same things you falsely claim. Do you not realize that with your methodology, you can twist the Scriptures to teach ANYTHING, just like you are doing?

I teach election, and can show the word in Scripture.
I teach predestination, and can show the word in Scripture.
I teach that God draws, and can show the word in Scripture.

Do you see the difference?

The book of Hebrews repeatedly speaks of Christ "offering" Himself as a sacrifice for sins. But would that convince you either?

Again, you demonstrate your ignorane of the atonement.
Christ is not making any offering to US, He's making an offering to the FATHER.

That's what your side doesn't understand.
No "offer" is made to sinners.
The only "offering" is by the Son to the Father, on behalf of God's ELECT.

 

[Slyzr]

And you would be demonstrating your ignorance of Scripture and contex.
Rev. 3:20 is a message to believers, not some "invitation" to unbelievers.



Again, no evidence that this is some "invitation.
Failed again.




You seem to think it's unreasonable to demand Scriptures that teach the same things you falsely claim. Do you not realize that with your methodology, you can twist the Scriptures to teach ANYTHING, just like you are doing?

I teach election, and can show the word in Scripture.
I teach predestination, and can show the word in Scripture.
I teach that God draws, and can show the word in Scripture.

Do you see the difference?



Again, you demonstrate your ignorane of the atonement.
Christ is not making any offering to US, He's making an offering to the FATHER.

That's what your side doesn't understand.
No "offer" is made to sinners.
The only "offering" is by the Son to the Father, on behalf of God's ELECT.

So according to your theology everyone else is dead.

For your elected priority?

And you call that grace?

Paul was really good at that.

No one can be ....

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Your responses make it apparent that you cannot defend your stance that you think you were somehow more righteous than your atheist neighbor who hears the same gospel message you do, who has access to the exact same information you do yet chooses not to believe as you do.
Your position is that because you are more righteous, you were able to choose to believe.
Am I wrong, and why?

And I said, that you generate faith because you are more righteous. What else sets you apart from the atheist neighbor.
You have stated before that him not wanting to have his sin exposed is what sets you apart, but you cannot tell me why you were willing and him not. What is it about you and other Arminians that made you better in your choices and caused your faith to be counted as righteousness.

Do you not think those declared righteous by God have faith?
By your objection above I can only take it that you do not believe the righteous have faith.
They are righteous but faith-less

The point was I said one thing and you repeated me, but changed what i said. Whether or not what you said is true was beside the point. It wasn't my argument that you were responding to

 

[squirrelyguy]

And you would be demonstrating your ignorance of Scripture and contex.
Rev. 3:20 is a message to believers, not some "invitation" to unbelievers.

I think that's highly doubtful from the context. The seven letters in Revelation are written to churches which have unbelievers in their midst, and Christ describes the recipients of that letter to the Laodicean church as "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked." These are the people to whom He says "Behold, I stand at the door and knock..."

Again, no evidence that this is some "invitation.
Failed again.

"Everyone who thirsts, come" is not enough to convince you that it's a general invitation?

You seem to think it's unreasonable to demand Scriptures that teach the same things you falsely claim. Do you not realize that with your methodology, you can twist the Scriptures to teach ANYTHING, just like you are doing?

I teach election, and can show the word in Scripture.
I teach predestination, and can show the word in Scripture.
I teach that God draws, and can show the word in Scripture.

Do you see the difference?

A Mormon could say "I teach baptism for the dead, and can show these words in Scripture." But what would that prove? Do debates about theology really hinge on whether one can find the exact words they attach to their beliefs in Scripture?

Again, you demonstrate your ignorane of the atonement.
Christ is not making any offering to US, He's making an offering to the FATHER.

I'm aware of that; but you only said you were looking for verses that use the word "offer" in reference to salvation. Those verses in Hebrews use the word "offer" in reference to salvation. But again, do debates about theology really hinge on whether one can find the exact words they attach to their beliefs in Scripture?

 

[Theo1689]

I think that's highly doubtful from the context. The seven letters in Revelation are written to churches

Why do you continue to ignore the obvious?

"Everyone who thirsts, come" is not enough to convince you that it's a general invitation?

So I guess when I drill seargent tells his unit to "atten... HUT!", that' merely a "general invitation too?

I'm guessing you've never been in the military.

A Mormon could say "I teach baptism for the dead, and can show these words in Scripture." But what would that prove? Do debates about theology really hinge on whether one can find the exact words they attach to their beliefs in Scripture?

So that means you don't need Scriptural support for your false beliefs?
You actually made my point FOR me. A Mormon has better Scriptural evidence for "baptism for the dead" than you have for the gospel being an "invitation".

I'm aware of that; but you only said you were looking for verses that use the word "offer" in reference to salvation. Those verses in Hebrews use the word "offer" in reference to salvation.

But it's not an offer to SINNERS (unless you want to claim God is a sinner?).

But again, do debates about theology really hinge on whether one can find the exact words they attach to their beliefs in Scripture?

You haven't demonstrated the CONCEPT.

 

[Manfred]

I believe that I freely chose Christ in response to an offer that He initiated, and as a result I don't have to pay for my own sins.

Where is this offer to everyone?
What makes you better than the atheist next door who has exactly same offer? What about you made you respond? In what way are you better than others?

And faith is not a work in any meritorious sense of the word. "Grace is not opposed to effort, it is opposed to earning." - Dallas Willard

I never said faith is a work. I know it is not one.
How did you come about your faith? Was it your diligence? Your brain-power? Your knowledge that gives you a better understanding? Your righteousness that is just better than that of the atheist because you were not afraid of having your sin exposed? Your bravery?

 

[Manfred]

Available and effective are not the same. Maybe a dictionary would help you.

I am not the one who claimed it was effective for everyone.
You said that it was the simple reading of scripture.

Now you run away from your folly...

Manfred said:
So you are of the opinion that those scriptures you posted without context teaches that Jesus died effectively for all men?

Leatherneck0311 said:
Yet, that is exactly and clearly what those two verses actually says. The walls you have built around your proof texts do not change the context of John 3:16 and 1John 2:2.

Why deny it any longer? You said it. If it was an error then at least admit to that.
My prediction is that it would be impossible for you to admit you could be wrong anytime anywhere. Self will not allow it.

 

[Manfred]

The point was I said one thing and you repeated me, but changed what i said. Whether or not what you said is true was beside the point. It wasn't my argument that you were responding to

If you base an argument on a false premise, then by answering the way I did, you should be able to recognize the false dilemma you create.

 

[Manfred]

So according to your theology everyone else is dead.

For your elected priority?

And you call that grace?

Paul was really good at that.

No one can be ....

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

 

[Simpletruther]

But what you are saying has nothing at all to do with the real world. What you are putting forth is a theoretical fantasy. For me Christianity is real, and is part of actual life as we know it.

I stated a fact. Which part are you claiming is fantasy?

Was your decision not smarter and morally superior than the one who rejected the invitation?

 

[Manfred]

I stayed a fact. Which part are you claiming is fantasy?

Was your decision not smarter and morally superior than the one who rejected the invitation?

He is unable to answer the query directly.
His avoidance in responding to the question asked indicates the stronghold over him and other Arminians.

Up to this point not one Arminian has been able to Give God alone the Glory. Giving God alone the glory contradicts their beliefs. It is always their good choices that caused them to have faith and because of that God reacted.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

I am not the one who claimed it was effective for everyone.
You said that it was the simple reading of scripture.

Now you run away from your folly...


Why deny it any longer? You said it. If it was an error then at least admit to that.
My prediction is that it would be impossible for you to admit you could be wrong anytime anywhere. Self will not allow it.

I have NEvER said it was effective for everyone. What I did say it was available to everyone who repented, and you accuse me of lying. You don’t acknowledge or remember when I posted that they would NOT come to the light because their deeds were evil ? Does that sound like I said or believe it was effective for everyone ? You might want to stop saying folks said things they never said that is called lying and it is a sin.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Choosing in the natural to have faith merits a medallion.
The fact that Arminians think they are better than atheists for being able to see something the atheist is not able to see shows how they think their faith merits them something.


Correct. Faith that comes when the truth is revealed to individuals who were predestined to have faith is never works.
It comes from God and not from self, therefore self cannot boast.
A faith that comes from self and triggers a reaction from God is what you teach.
Stay focused instead of running away from your core beliefs.

Another falsehood created in the recesses of your murky mind.
Calvinists teach that those predestined by God will hear the Gospel message, and God will open their hearts to understand the Spiritual, and they will be convicted and repent.
If you want to claim something else, then try and back it up first before lying about it.

Again faith is counted by God as if it is righteousness, implying that faith is not on its own a righteous act, since God must reckon it AS righteousness. You are denigrating faith that you identify as a human choice ("choosing in the natural") You are also claiming that if you respond to the truth with faith, but you were not predestined to, then it isn't really faith. That reads as if you think the Bible teaches that we were predestined to believe. There is no such verse.
As far as boasting two things come to Mind
1.faith is never spoken of as predestined, or a something to boast about
2. the way you describe boasting, a person could boast either way, with or without God's help. but no one in reality ever boasts about being saved by faith, that is a Calvinist concoction that does not exist in the real world.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

He is unable to answer the query directly.
His avoidance in responding to the question asked indicates the stronghold over him and other Arminians.

Up to this point not one Arminian has been able to Give God alone the Glory. Giving God alone the glory contradicts their beliefs. It is always their good choices that caused them to have faith and because of that God reacted.

you have mistated again, Intentionally? Nobody teaches that good choices cause us to have faith.
You are again arguing strawmen. It should wake you up to the poorness of your arguments when you realize how often you change what a poster has said and argue against your own strawman.

Here is my position, and possibly the position of others discussing here: God gave me the faith to know He exists, but that measure of faith only brought revelation, not salvation. It was my obligation to entrust myself to Jesus, based on the revelation that had been gifted me. Two kinds of faith at work: one that reveals truth, and one that is the entrusting of yourself to God.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

I have NEvER said it was effective for everyone. What I did say it was available to everyone who repented, and you accuse me of lying. You don’t acknowledge or remember when I posted that they would NOT come to the light because their deeds were evil ? Does that sound like I said or believe it was effective for everyone ? You might want to stop saying folks said things they never said that is called lying and it is a sin.

When we discuss WHAT is effective, Christ's death was effective in that it caused God to reconcile Himself to us. That first step although effective, did not save us. It effectively opened the door and since it effectively caused God to be reconciled to us, we are now told to take our own action of faith and be reconciled to God. Clearly described in 2 Cor 5:18-20

 

[Alexander the adequate]

I could cite verses like Rev. 3:20 ("Behold, I stand at the door and knock...") or Isaiah 55:1 ("Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.") But would that convince you? Or are you looking for verses that literally use the word "offer" in regards to salvation? The book of Hebrews repeatedly speaks of Christ "offering" Himself as a sacrifice for sins. But would that convince you either?

Yes Revelation 3:20 is clear. Christ on the outside, offering to come into whoever will open the door. For someone to interpret that as the indwelling Christ to be knocking on the door, asking to be invited in, does not ring true to those written words.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Where is this offer to everyone?
What makes you better than the atheist next door who has exactly same offer? What about you made you respond? In what way are you better than others?

I never said faith is a work. I know it is not one.
How did you come about your faith? Was it your diligence? Your brain-power? Your knowledge that gives you a better understanding? Your righteousness that is just better than that of the atheist because you were not afraid of having your sin exposed? Your bravery?

You start out by saying that you never said faith is a work, then you go on here to describe it as a work. You eschew the word "work" but embrace the concept.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

If you base an argument on a false premise, then by answering the way I did, you should be able to recognize the false dilemma you create.

If you wish to communicate to me, you cannot tell me what you think I meant, you must respond to what I actually said.
We may agree that words can have a variety of meanings and uses, and if we are to communicate our different interpretations, we have to be willing to define words, and not change what people argue, or argue agianst what we are guessing they mean.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

When we discuss WHAT is effective, Christ's death was effective in that it caused God to reconcile Himself to us. That first step although effective, did not save us. It effectively opened the door and since it effectively caused God to be reconciled to us, we are now told to take our own action of faith and be reconciled to God. Clearly described in 2 Cor 5:18-20

Amen