It's a movement.

Temujin

Well-known member
So---what---we get to murder unborn people? Because normal pregnancy is not "safe" (whatever that means) murder of the unborn on demand is justifable? That is your point?
No, that is not my point. You are an intelligent poster. Faux stupidity does not become you. My point is that highlighting the "dangers" of taking abortion medication in the home without mentioning that these "dangers" are in fact less dangerous than simply being pregnant, is dishonest. I also made the point that all life is risky and that choices frequently consist of balancing and choosing between risks. In the case of pregnancy and abortion, the only person who can morally make the choice is the person who is pregnant. Others can advice , inform or even urge certain choices, but ultimately it must come down to that one person.

"Murdering unborn people" is a phrase I should congratulate you on, as it gets two lies into three words. Notmany here, even the Christians, manage that.
Oh? That is a lie?

What is an abortion? What happens during an abortion? What is the goal of an abortion?
No. It is two lies.
No murder.
No unborn person.
 

BMS

Well-known member
The legal (not murder) killing of an unborn non-person.

You think that abortion is the murder of an unborn person? Good for you.
The law doesn't, and a woman with an unwanted pregnancy is under no obligation to care.
Many think abortion is the murder of an unborn person. Its the intentional killing of another human being whether legal or illegal. It is the intentional killing of another human being whether that human being is called a person or not, whether legal or illegal.
So its intentional killing of a human being where illegal, albeit not the murder of an unborn person where legal.
Since its in dispute in that respect I suggest you stop insisting your position.
 

BMS

Well-known member
No, that is not my point. You are an intelligent poster. Faux stupidity does not become you. My point is that highlighting the "dangers" of taking abortion medication in the home without mentioning that these "dangers" are in fact less dangerous than simply being pregnant, is dishonest. I also made the point that all life is risky and that choices frequently consist of balancing and choosing between risks. In the case of pregnancy and abortion, the only person who can morally make the choice is the person who is pregnant. Others can advice , inform or even urge certain choices, but ultimately it must come down to that one person.

"Murdering unborn people" is a phrase I should congratulate you on, as it gets two lies into three words. Notmany here, even the Christians, manage that.

No. It is two lies.
No murder.
No unborn person.
Wrong. As shown
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Many think abortion is the murder of an unborn person. Its the intentional killing of another human being whether legal or illegal. It is the intentional killing of another human being whether that human being is called a person or not, whether legal or illegal.
So its intentional killing of a human being where illegal, albeit not the murder of an unborn person where legal.
Since its in dispute in that respect I suggest you stop insisting your position.
That is the thing with the abortion supporting posters---that has never made sense to me. They seem to keep wanting to hang their heads on the law without explaining what it has to do with the justification of abortion---or why---abortion still needs to be legal.

Their argument seems to be "Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." Huh? How is that an argument? They never seem to get around to explaining how that is an argument.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BMS

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
"Murdering unborn people" is a phrase I should congratulate you on, as it gets two lies into three words. Not many here, even the Christians, manage that.

No. It is two lies.
No murder.
No unborn person.
Therein lies your your 2 lies:

1) It is not murder, and 2) No unborn person is involved.

And I understand why you would have to maintain this lie. Who would support abortion if abortion supporters said "I support murder of the unborn?"

The fact is, as I have pointed out on this site many times: if an abortion were analogous to any other medical procedure, no one would care about it, there would be no controversy. The reason for the controversy--is precisely because abortion is NOT analogous to any other medical procedure--thought abortion supporters certainly try to frame it that way.
 

mikeT

Well-known member

Indiana becomes first state in nation to approve near-total abortion ban post Roe.​

Only in terms of personnel (aka. the people who work in it), can you tell us the difference between the DOJ under Trump and the DOJ under Biden?
 

mikeT

Well-known member
That is the thing with the abortion supporting posters---that has never made sense to me. They seem to keep wanting to hang their heads on the law without explaining what it has to do with the justification of abortion
Hats.

The phrase is "hang your hat", not head. It's an implication of where a person is going to stay, and not move from for a while. A person "hangs their hat" on an issue when their opinion is not going to change.

Abortion supporters hang their hats on legality - because as long as abortion is legal, it cannot be murder. By definition.

It's not rocket science.
 

BMS

Well-known member
That is the thing with the abortion supporting posters---that has never made sense to me. They seem to keep wanting to hang their heads on the law without explaining what it has to do with the justification of abortion---or why---abortion still needs to be legal.

Their argument seems to be "Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." Huh? How is that an argument? They never seem to get around to explaining how that is an argument.
Yes. They ignore the fact that where it is illegal it is by their position, murder. They only recognise law they agree with.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Hats.

The phrase is "hang your hat", not head. It's an implication of where a person is going to stay, and not move from for a while. A person "hangs their hat" on an issue when their opinion is not going to change.

Abortion supporters hang their hats on legality - because as long as abortion is legal, it cannot be murder. By definition.

It's not rocket science.
As long as abortion is illegal, it is murder by definition
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Therein lies your your 2 lies:

1) It is not murder, and 2) No unborn person is involved.

And I understand why you would have to maintain this lie. Who would support abortion if abortion supporters said "I support murder of the unborn?"

The fact is, as I have pointed out on this site many times: if an abortion were analogous to any other medical procedure, no one would care about it, there would be no controversy. The reason for the controversy--is precisely because abortion is NOT analogous to any other medical procedure--thought abortion supporters certainly try to frame it that way.
The statement "Legal abortion is not murder." Is true by definition. It says nothing about the morality or about whether abortion should be legal. Where abortion is legal, it is not murder. Fact. Anyone who says it is murder is stating a falsehood, like saying that taxes are theft.

Person is slightly more tricky, but it is certainly true that in those countries where definitive legal rulings have been made, the unborn are not person's. It is also true that they are not treated as person's, and never have been treated as person's under any legal system that I'm aware of. The phrase "unborn person" is therefore false and misleading, so I feel completely justified bin calling it a lie.

If there's a moral and/or legal argument against abortion, I would expect that it could be made without lying. If that isn't possible, why should anyone take any notice of it?
 

BMS

Well-known member
The statement "Legal abortion is not murder." Is true by definition.
Is the point being made. So you are only right when you claim its not murder, when its legal.

It says nothing about the morality or about whether abortion should be legal.
Your argument was about legality.
Where abortion is legal, it is not murder. Fact.
And where its illegal it is murder. Fact.
Anyone who says it is murder is stating a falsehood, like saying that taxes are theft.
So based on legality anyone saying it is or isnt murder is stating a falsehood since it depends on the legality.

Person is slightly more tricky, but it is certainly true that in those countries where definitive legal rulings have been made, the unborn are not person's. It is also true that they are not treated as person's, and never have been treated as person's under any legal system that I'm aware of. The phrase "unborn person" is therefore false and misleading, so I feel completely justified bin calling it a lie.
Its not tricky, its simple. The entity remains the same whether someone calls it a person and someone objects to it being called a person.

If there's a moral and/or legal argument against abortion, I would expect that it could be made without lying. If that isn't possible, why should anyone take any notice of it?
Objection overruled. You need to grasp reality and logic.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
That is the thing with the abortion supporting posters---that has never made sense to me. They seem to keep wanting to hang their heads on the law without explaining what it has to do with the justification of abortion---or why---abortion still needs to be legal.

Their argument seems to be "Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." Huh? How is that an argument? They never seem to get around to explaining how that is an argument.
Abortion in most countries of the world is, de jure and de facto, not murder. I am very happy to discuss whether or not that should be the case, and indeed have done so ,with you, very extensively in the past. However, arguments need to start with the status quo, and an agreement of what the status quo actually is. Stating that abortion is murder, is a fantasy. It isn't. Your last statement incidentally is another lie, since you and others have been told on umpteen occasions by several different posters why legal abortion is not murder. To say that "They never seem to get around to explaining how that is an argument." is just untrue. I can understand why you would want to blank from your kind the number of times your precious slogan has been shown to be a lie. Not just declared to be, but shown to be.

Frankly, I'm at a loss why you persist with a phase, however pithy, that shows you to be both foolish and dishonest, and discredits your message to the point it is dismissed without further question. Perhaps it would help if you found somewhere where legal abortion actually is called murder, not just should be, but actually is. Perhaps you could give examples of the unborn being treated as a person, a full blown, same as everyone else, person. Then perhaps you could have a scintilla of justification for your statements rather than demanding that we, yet again, justify ours to the contrary.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Abortion in most countries of the world is, de jure and de facto, not murder.
and in some where it is illegal, by definition it is murder.


I am very happy to discuss whether or not that should be the case, but whilst you deny the reality we cant discuss.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Hats.

The phrase is "hang your hat", not head. It's an implication of where a person is going to stay, and not move from for a while. A person "hangs their hat" on an issue when their opinion is not going to change.

Abortion supporters hang their hats on legality - because as long as abortion is legal, it cannot be murder. By definition.

It's not rocket science.
Yeah--you are proving my point:

"Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." For some reason you seem to this this constitutes an argument.

This is like saying when slavery was legal: "Slavery is legal, therefore it isn't slavery." or "Slavery is legal, therefore minorities are not human."

Why is abortion not murder because it is legal?

How about this: abortion is murder that is legal?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Yeah--you are proving my point:

Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." For some reason you seem to this "this constitutes an argument.

This is like saying when slavery was legal: "Slavery is legal, therefore it isn't slavery." or "Slavery is legal, therefore minorities are not human."

Why is abortion not murder because it is legal?

How about this: abortion is murder that is legal?
Murder is a legal term. Shorn of its legal provenance it becomes a mere metaphor, as in "These tight shoes are murder." When it means anything, it means illegal killing of a person. It doesn't refer to the legal killing of a non-person. Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." Is not an argument. It is a stone cold fact. You are welcome to deny facts, but it doesn't make your argument very persuasive.
 

mikeT

Well-known member
Yeah--you are proving my point:
No, I'm not. I'm correcting your ignorance of the phrase you used.

"Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." For some reason you seem to this this constitutes an argument.
It's not an argument; it's a statement of fact.

This is like saying when slavery was legal: "Slavery is legal, therefore it isn't slavery."
No, it really isn't. Slavery isn't defined as a legal or illegal act, thus whether slavery is legal or not doesn't impact usage of the word.

Murder, however, IS defined as an illegal act/killing. Thus, calling a legal killing "murder" is factually incorrect and willfully ignorant.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Murder is a legal term. Shorn of its legal provenance it becomes a mere metaphor, as in "These tight shoes are murder." When it means anything, it means illegal killing of a person. It doesn't refer to the legal killing of a non-person. Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." Is not an argument. It is a stone cold fact. You are welcome to deny facts, but it doesn't make your argument very persuasive.
Murder is also a dictionary definition term.
You are welcome to deny the facts but it puts your argument in a weak position
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
They seem to keep wanting to hang their heads on the law without explaining what it has to do with the justification of abortion---or why---abortion still needs to be legal.
I've explained it till I'm blue in the face - the prospect of forcing an already-pregnant woman to carry to term is morally worse than allowing her to abort it.
Their argument seems to be "Abortion is legal, therefore it isn't murder." Huh? How is that an argument?
It's not an argument.
It's a FACT.

We are not arguing that abortion is OK because it's legal; we are arguing that it should be legal because it's OK.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
There's really no point getting hung up on semantics. The purpose of language is to provide a common means of communicating and receiving ideas. When they don't do that, just use another word.
I quite agree. However, some people have no argument at all, just gut-think and emotional claptrap. Only by clinging to tropes about murdering babies can they keep their failed ideology going. It's a shame really, since there are real arguments and discussions to be had around the subject, but so quickly they degenerate into this mindless semantic morass.
 
Top