It's time:

5wize

Well-known member
I know it upsets you to think the only way to know anything from outside your box has to come from something outside your box.

There there darlin, it will be ok.
So it looks like about 45,000 different immutable ultimate timeless creators of the universe are sending messages into the box.... Bwahahahahhaaaaaa.

Sounds more like your brain box is just up for grabs from whatever.
 

Furion

Well-known member
I get understanding concerning the entanglement between time and existence.
Oh, you have understanding of time-existence entanglement eh?

It could very well be vectors of poop out of your mouth.

I guess it's in how you look at it.

Too bad your science is so weak.
 

York

Active member
Please explain how anything can exist without time.

The singularity appears to have been able to do it.

Christian apologists are fond of claiming that their god exists outside of space and time. Ignoring the question of how the former is even possible (which is just as valid of a question), I'm curious to know how anything can think act or breathe when there is no time in which to do so.

I think the problem is one of perspective. You cannot conceive of something, therefore that something is automatically questionable (in the sense of being in doubt)

But consider yourself as an amoeba for a moment. You wouldn't be aware of time but merely get on with amoeba-existence limited by amoeba-ness. The fact that you cannot conceive of time doth not affect the fact of time.

Your question isn't really up to much. It merely assumes that the limits of your understanding represent some kind of peak against which all else must be measured.

(which is not an unsurprising thing for a god to do)
 

Furion

Well-known member
So it looks like about 45,000 different immutable ultimate timeless creators of the universe are sending messages into the box.... Bwahahahahhaaaaaa.

Sounds more like your brain box is just up for grabs from whatever.
It doesn't sound like you have any coherent contributions, but I do like to play with words.

Your fizzing in your head is producing dyslexic portals of ignorance, thus dingleberries are falling out which unicorns graze upon under the C-beam glitter near the Tannhauser Gate.

I see many atheists here much like Roy from blade runner, but he at least had something to say at his end.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Oh, you have understanding of time-existence entanglement eh?

It could very well be vectors of poop out of your mouth.

I guess it's in how you look at it.

Too bad your science is so weak.
LoL.

Let's just suffice to say that the entanglement of time, matter, and existence makes a crap-load more sense than some 2nd century clap-trap about God the father, the son and the holy ghost each being 100% of the god-head all at the same time but different things all at the same time too. Whoah..... Slow down their Dr. Suess., you're missing a Thing 3?
 

Furion

Well-known member
LoL.

Let's just suffice to say that the entanglement of time, matter, and existence...
Lol.

I think you instinctively juxtapose your beliefs against whatever you think someone else has not said.

That makes your tactics dishonest, and makes you appear unsure of yourself.

Try to "focus like a laser" and explain your thingies without putting other views down.

That way it's more scientific instead of just ranting against ghosts in your head.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
The singularity appears to have been able to do it.
I disagree. The singularity WAS time; it WAS space.



Christian apologists are fond of claiming that their god exists outside of space and time. Ignoring the question of how the former is even possible (which is just as valid of a question), I'm curious to know how anything can think act or breathe when there is no time in which to do so.
I think the problem is one of perspective. You cannot conceive of something, therefore that something is automatically questionable (in the sense of being in doubt)

But consider yourself as an amoeba for a moment. You wouldn't be aware of time but merely get on with amoeba-existence limited by amoeba-ness. The fact that you cannot conceive of time doth not affect the fact of time.

Your question isn't really up to much. It merely assumes that the limits of your understanding represent some kind of peak against which all else must be measured.

(which is not an unsurprising thing for a god to do)
That's a very convenient escape clause for the Christian apologist who asserts God exists outside of time. On its own, it might be worth taking seriously, because it's indeed true that just because I can't conceive of a thing doesn't actually mean the thing can't exist.

The problem, here, is that it's the Christian who's doing the asserting - and when it comes time for them to justify it, they can't. They throw up their apologetic hands and rhetorically ask "how else could it have happened?".

They're doing the opposite of what you've explained to me, and never once do they allow themselves to ask "if that's the only answer I can think of, why must it be true?"

---

The reality is that I might be more amenable to your valid question if I hadn't spent the last 3+ decades talking with Christian apologists, and watching them make stuff up to take the pressure off the need to justify what they believe in. I'm obviously referring to some of the more outlandish stuff, like young earth creationism, the infallibility of scripture, biblical prophecies which they only use the bible as the source for whether such things came to pass, etc.

Christians - by and large - will say most anything in order to satisfy some question they don't have an adequate answer for. The smart/sincere ones are usually the believers who don't go around making outlandish claims, which is why they tend to be quiet around questions about Christian doctrine.

God existing outside time and space is nothing more than a glib answer, meant to get skeptics off the backs of the average believer, without the Christian needing to do any serious thinking about the implications of that claim. A God who existed outside of time would literally be unable to act within it; He would never say or imply than people should "wait" for various things to come to pass; He would never place great importance on the choices people make (because He'd be able to see what those choices would eventually be). The claim causes many more problems than it solves - and yet I'm just supposed to question myself about my inability to understand apparent contradictions?

I submit this respectfully: no. This is a Christian problem, not a problem of skeptics with inadequate imaginations.

---

ps. you deserve credit for NOT being the kind of cricket I thought this thread would be inundated with. Thanks for literally helping to keep this discussion active, constructive and enjoyable. We may disagree on a few fundamental things, but I'm glad you decided to start posting to the Secular forums here. Thanks!
 

Furion

Well-known member
I get understanding concerning the entanglement between time and existence. You get Christian unicorns and cotton candy rainbows shooting time and matter out of god's timeless arse.
I once found an Atheist Unicorn, when I got closer I realized it was a goat! It was munching on foie and pooping sexual harassment. I kid you not!
 

York

Active member
I disagree. The singularity WAS time; it WAS space.

So is God (amongst other things) - goes the rather obvious counter to the problem posed
That's a very convenient escape clause for the Christian apologist who asserts God exists outside of time.

As did the singularity. Outside it there was no time. Outside God no time or space. He exists where there is no time or space.
On its own, it might be worth taking seriously, because it's indeed true that just because I can't conceive of a thing doesn't actually mean the thing can't exist.

The problem, here, is that it's the Christian who's doing the asserting - and when it comes time for them to justify it, they can't. They throw up their apologetic hands and rhetorically ask "how else could it have happened?".

They're doing the opposite of what you've explained to me, and never once do they allow themselves to ask "if that's the only answer I can think of, why must it be true?"

The non Christian supposes the singularity just to be, without it having to come from anywhere. Why need God come from anywhere.
---

The reality is that I might be more amenable to your valid question if I hadn't spent the last 3+ decades talking with Christian apologists, and watching them make stuff up to take the pressure off the need to justify what they believe in.

You don't even make stuff up for what you believe in. You point to the products of empirical method as a justification for the claim that empiricism is the best/only way to approach all reality. The former says nothing about the latter yet you don't seem to have modified your view in 3 decades. You hold to a philosophy .. yet, iirc, have no interest in philosophy.

Odd.


I'm obviously referring to some of the more outlandish stuff, like young earth creationism, the infallibility of scripture, biblical prophecies which they only use the bible as the source for whether such things came to pass, etc.

Christians - by and large - will say most anything in order to satisfy some question they don't have an adequate answer for. The smart/sincere ones are usually the believers who don't go around making outlandish claims, which is why they tend to be quiet around questions about Christian doctrine.

I couldn't give a fig what others say. It's what I say and you say in this discussion.

You've nothing to say to justify your belief system (empiricism being at least one aspect of )


God existing outside time and space is nothing more than a glib answer, meant to get skeptics off the backs of the average believer, without the Christian needing to do any serious thinking about the implications of that claim. A God who existed outside of time would literally be unable to act within it;

?? Why would his existing independently of time/space prevent him operating in time/space?


He would never say or imply than people should "wait" for various things to come to pass;
Why not? They exist in time/space so can wait. Insofar as he exists in time /space he too can wait.


He would never place great importance on the choices people make (because He'd be able to see what those choices would eventually be).

Why does seeing people make choices render those choice unimportant. His observing 'ahead of time' doesn't alter it being our choice. And if we'd chosen differently, that's what he would see 'ahead if time'



The claim causes many more problems than it solves - and yet I'm just supposed to question myself about my inability to understand apparent contradictions?

I submit this respectfully: no. This is a Christian problem, not a problem of skeptics with inadequate imaginations.

---

ps. you deserve credit for NOT being the kind of cricket I thought this thread would be inundated with. Thanks for literally helping to keep this discussion active, constructive and enjoyable. We may disagree on a few fundamental things, but I'm glad you decided to start posting to the Secular forums here. Thanks!
I don't know the answers (I may have this extra sense but I don't know by what means God knows the end from the beginning) but that doesn't mean there has to be a problem. I just don't see the issue with stepping outside of a realm that I am familiar with to suppose there can't be other, equally well functioning realms. Surely it's madness to suppose that because this is what we know and are familiar with (space time) that another realm is problematic??

You've heard all the analogies, the 2d creature who encounters a cliff face he cannot navigate whereas the 3d creature just walks around the obstacle. You don't have to know there is another realm to suppose there being no issue adding another one in.

Similarly the issue: me deluded vs you blind. There is no issue with a non empirical sense added and you merely blind to it. And so the conclusion stalemate rather than your position: if it can't be justified then reason to suppose it doesn't exist.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
The singularity WAS time; it WAS space.
So is God (amongst other things) - goes the rather obvious counter to the problem posed.
God IS time? Then how can He exist outside of it?

You're the very first person - in 35 years of listening to Christian apologists - I've ever heard to claim this. It has the feel of glibness, rather than sincerity.
My apologies, York. The bolded word above was the wrong one to use. I consider you to be in the minority of sincere Christian posters in this forum.

Glibness rather than... carefully-considered?
 
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