Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated?

TomFL

Well-known member
Its you who ignore scripture
This is scripture

Still ignoring scripture and context I see

Not if read the context rather than your theology

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you produce only your theology
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
This is scripture

Still ignoring scripture and context I see

Not if read the context rather than your theology

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you produce only your theology
Romans 9 is scripture.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I have long believed
So you've long been biased to falsely believe:
that no one ever comes to understand Romans 9 through a Calvinistic paradigm
The above is a faulty and assuming platform, and is question begging. But continue:

unless they are first taught to look for Calvinism in the text.
Which is unfounded and untrue. No one is taught to look for "Calvinism" in the text, rather your disdain for Calvinists is on display. Before I ever knew what Calvinism was, even as an IFB preacher, I believed all of this.

The fact remains that the text is there to show forth the fact that God's purpose of election will continue, not by those who work, but because of His will, Romans 9:11. That is, that He is Sovereign in electing whom He wills, and exercising justice on whom He wills. Therefore you can argue forever on what you think "hate" means and it will never change these facts.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Romans 9 is scripture.
Yes but your interpretation is not

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes but your interpretation is not

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””
You cant get around it, Romans 9 teaches unconditional election unto salvation. Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
You cant get around it, Romans 9 teaches unconditional election unto salvation. Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Yes, unconditional election is the Gospel and true grace, conditional election is a false gospel and isn't grace at all.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You cant get around it, Romans 9 teaches unconditional election unto salvation. Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Salvation isnot mentioned

All you have is an assumption

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Salvation isnot mentioned

All you have is an assumption

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””
The whole Book is about Salvation, its the theme Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

So unconditional Election unto Salvation is a Gospel Truth ! And sadly you dont believe it.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
The whole Book is about Salvation, its the theme Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

So unconditional Election unto Salvation is a Gospel Truth ! And sadly you dont believe it.
Yes.

They are truncated in thought, stunted in growth as if the ONLY things in the Gospel are the death, burial, and resurrection (some include "and that he was seen or he appeared.") 1 Corinthians 15:1-6.

But these must be hashed out! Death, burial and resurrection of who??? Who died???? Why??? What does it mean? Buried? Raised? Why???? Seen? Why??? How does this effect me? What does it all mean? What am I to understand from all of this? Who is He? Why is this "good news???"

It isn't merely saying the words "death, burial, resurrection."

People need to plum the meanings and actually think. The Gospel is much more vast than they think it is, hence Romans.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes.

They are truncated in thought, stunted in growth as if the ONLY things in the Gospel are the death, burial, and resurrection (some include "and that he was seen or he appeared.") 1 Corinthians 15:1-6.

But these must be hashed out! Death, burial and resurrection of who??? Who died???? Why??? What does it mean? Buried? Raised? Why???? Seen? Why??? How does this effect me? What does it all mean? What am I to understand from all of this? Who is He? Why is this "good news???"

It isn't merely saying the words "death, burial, resurrection." People need to plum the meanings and actually think. The Gospel is much more vast than they think it is, hence Romans.
Exactly and what did His Death, Burial, and Resurrection accomplish, Who was His Death Burial and Resurrection for ? These are very important details that need to be addressed in the Gospel !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The whole Book is about Salvation, its the theme Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

So unconditional Election unto Salvation is a Gospel Truth ! And sadly you dont believe it.
Hello

You cannot take one portion of a book and just assume the same thing is in view in another portion

Rom 9 Jacob and Esau is still about service

god is calling a people who will serve him

In this case Israel

Rom. 9:6–12 —ESV
Ҧ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.””

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you ignore context and correlation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Hello

You cannot take one portion of a book and just assume the same thing is in view in another portion

Rom 9 Jacob and Esau is still about service

god is calling a people who will serve him

In this case Israel

Rom. 9:6–12 —ESV
Ҧ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.””

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you ignore context and correlation
Romans 9 is about the purpose of God according to Election in Salvation. It is made crystal clear it is unconditional.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Romans 9 is about the purpose of God according to Election in Salvation. It is made crystal clear it is unconditional.
Thee is no mention of election to salvation concerning Jacob and Esau

ou cannot take one portion of a book and just assume the same thing is in view in another portion

Rom 9 Jacob and Esau is still about service

god is calling a people who will serve him

In this case Israel

Rom. 9:6–12 —ESV
Ҧ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.””

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you ignore context and correlation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Thee is no mention of election to salvation concerning Jacob and Esau

ou cannot take one portion of a book and just assume the same thing is in view in another portion

Rom 9 Jacob and Esau is still about service

god is calling a people who will serve him

In this case Israel

Rom. 9:6–12 —ESV
Ҧ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.””

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you ignore context and correlation
Folk kill me, always talking about show me the scripture. When you show it to them they deny it. Election to Salvation is unconditional before the elect are born to have done good or evil Rom 9 11


(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Folk kill me, always talking about show me the scripture. When you show it to them they deny it. Election to Salvation is unconditional before the elect are born to have done good or evil Rom 9 11


(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Salvation is not mentioned

Hello

Thee is no mention of election to salvation concerning Jacob and Esau

ou cannot take one portion of a book and just assume the same thing is in view in another portion

Rom 9 Jacob and Esau is still about service

god is calling a people who will serve him

In this case Israel

Rom. 9:6–12 —ESV
Ҧ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.””

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you ignore context and correlation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Salvation is not mentioned

Hello

Thee is no mention of election to salvation concerning Jacob and Esau

ou cannot take one portion of a book and just assume the same thing is in view in another portion

Rom 9 Jacob and Esau is still about service

god is calling a people who will serve him

In this case Israel

Rom. 9:6–12 —ESV
Ҧ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
she was told, “The older will serve the younger.””

all Israel (Jacob) was not saved

and we have no evidence all Edom (Esau) not reprobated

Gen. 25:23 —ESV
“And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.””

Mal. 1:2–4 —ESV
“¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””

you ignore context and correlation
Are you kidding? The entire book is about Salvation and nothing but Salvation.
 
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