James 2:24 - for the 50 millionth time

[Theo1689]

edit

He also wants to bring up the same topic/proof-text that has been refuted 50 million times in the past.

What do you find as "games" about the testimony of the Biblical witness?

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You do have a salvational theology which is called "faith alone"--right?

The LDS follow the Biblical testimony above. It's no game to them. Anathema to the theology pawned by some here.

James 2:24 doesn't deny salvation by faith alone.
It denies "justification" by faith alone.
And specifically what it is saying that just because someone CLAIMS to have faith, doesn't mean they actually do. Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).
It simply means that the works are the fruits or evidence of a saving faith.

The second theologically inept thing this poster does is to IGNORE the bulk of Scripture, which teaches that salvation IS by "faith alone" (by stating it comes by faith, and excluding any "works"):

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

 

[dberrie2020]

James 2:24 doesn't deny salvation by faith alone.
It denies "justification" by faith alone.

Are you claiming one can be saved without being justified by God?

Theo--there is a point here I believe you might be missing, and is combined with "not by faith only"--which is LDS theology:

James 2:18-26----King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That's LDS theology, Theo--and it defies faith alone theology.

 

[dberrie2020]

Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works,

I have a question for Theo:

Is a "true saving faith" necessary for salvation to occur?

 

[dberrie2020]

And specifically what it is saying that just because someone CLAIMS to have faith, doesn't mean they actually do. Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).

Then are you claiming a "true saving faith" isn't necessary for salvation?

Then why is it "true saving faith" then--if it isn't necessary to be saved? Theo--this is the same confused theology some post here, IMO.

 

[Theo1689]

Then are you claiming a "true saving faith" isn't necessary for salvation?

Then why is it "true saving faith" then--if it isn't necessary to be saved? Theo--this is the same confused theology some post here, IMO.

<sigh>

I'm not a Mormon.

This forum isn't for me to answer your questions.
It's for you to answer OURS.

 

[Theo1689]

Are you claiming one can be saved without being justified by God?

I'm not a Mormon.
So my beliefs are OFF-TOPIC for this forum.

Stop dodging the issue by avoiding my posts, and then trying to put me on the defensive instead. Why know your tricks.

Why do you refuse to address Eph. 2:8-9?
Why do you refuse to address 2 Tim. 1:9?
Why do you refuse to address Tit. 3:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 4:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 11:5-6?

That's LDS theology, Theo--and it defies faith alone theology.

Correct.
LDS theology defies faith alone theology.
And faith alone theology is 100% Biblical (according to all the above passages you keep RUNNING AWAY from).

So LDS theology defies the Bible.

 

[dberrie2020]

I'm not a Mormon.

This forum isn't for me to answer your questions.
It's for you to answer OURS.

Please do show me where it violates any rule for me to ask you questions about your posts here.

Again--more deflection. And the LDS are accused of such? They can't hold a candle to the deflection of the critics, IMO.

 

[dberrie2020]

LDS theology defies faith alone theology.

Then they are in good company:

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Theo1689]

Please do show me where it violates any rule for me to ask you questions about your posts here.

Again--more deflection. And the LDS are accused of such? They can't hold a candle to the deflection of the critics, IMO.

Yep... More deflection by YOU.


Why do you refuse to address Eph. 2:8-9?
Why do you refuse to address 2 Tim. 1:9?
Why do you refuse to address Tit. 3:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 4:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 11:5-6?

 

[dberrie2020]

Yep... More deflection by YOU.


Why do you refuse to address Eph. 2:8-9?
Why do you refuse to address 2 Tim. 1:9?
Why do you refuse to address Tit. 3:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 4:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 11:5-6?

Theo--you can't even begin to defend what you have already posted. Running somewhere else won't help that. You have a very confused theology, IMO, IE--

And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).

So--a faith which does not produce works can't save--but,--"That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't)."

OK, Theo.

So--a "true saving faith will have works"--but salvation does not require those works?

OK, Theo. Sure thing.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Theo1689]

Theo--you can't even begin to defend what you have already posted. Running somewhere else won't help that. You have a very confused theology, IMO, IE--

You need to stop dodging the issue and being insulting ("you have a very confused theology"), and actually ADDRESS the Biblical issues which contradict Mormonism.

Why do you refuse to address Eph. 2:8-9?
Why do you refuse to address 2 Tim. 1:9?
Why do you refuse to address Tit. 3:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 4:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 11:5-6?

It's not my fault that you're confused by the Bible.
Don't try to blame that on me.

 

[Theo1689]

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

I almost forgot how much you love the ECF's.
So for your benefit and edification, I will include the following:

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks  only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.  But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but the gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you.  For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)

 

[dberrie2020]

You need to stop dodging the issue and being insulting ("you have a very confused theology"), and actually ADDRESS the Biblical issues which contradict Mormonism.

Why do you refuse to address Eph. 2:8-9?
Why do you refuse to address 2 Tim. 1:9?
Why do you refuse to address Tit. 3:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 4:5?
Why do you refuse to address Rom. 11:5-6?

Again--because of the confusion which has already been posted:

And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).

So--a faith which does not produce works can't save--but,--"That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't)."

OK, Theo.

So--a "true saving faith will have works"--but salvation does not require those works?

OK, Theo. Sure thing.

Seeing that level confusion--there isn't much hope of it getting any better.

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[dberrie2020]

I almost forgot how much you love the ECF's.
So for your benefit and edification, I will include the following:

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

Theo--why torture the already expressed theology?

Theo's quote----And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no".

 

[Theo1689]

Theo--why torture the already expressed theology?

I don't know why YOU torture the theology already expressed in the Bible.

Eph. 2:8-9.
Tit. 3:5
2 Tim. 1:9
Rom. 4:5.
Rom. 11:5-6.

Only you know why you torture it, and why you constantly run away from these Scriptures.

And why you blindly accept Smith's bastardization of Scripture.

 

[Bonnie]

I almost forgot how much you love the ECF's.
So for your benefit and edification, I will include the following:

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks  only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.  But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but the gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you.  For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)

Luke 7:50--Jesus said to the woman, "your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace."

 

[Bonnie]

Hi Theo--we have done this subject to death on here, on this board and others....our responses won't change, and neither will the other person's. However, 5 years ago on here, someone compiled a list of verses that disprove salvation by grace plus works. It might have been you, but I don't know for certain, as I didn't make note of who it was. But here is the list, part 1:

1. And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6, ESV)
2. “Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.” (Psalm 68:20, ESV)
3. “LORD, you are the God who saves me; day and night I cry out to you.” (Psalm 88:1, NIV)
4. “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” (Isaiah 64:6, ESV)
5. “Look, his ego is inflated; he is without integrity. But the righteous one will live by his faith.” (Habakkuk 2:4, HCSB)
6. “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matthew 26:28, NIV)
7. “Jesus said to the woman, ‘Your faith has saved you; go in peace.’” (Luke 7:50, NIV)
8. “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” (John 1:12, NIV)
9. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, NKJV)
10. “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” (John 3:18, NKJV)
11. “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24, ESV)
12. “Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent’.” (John 6:29, NIV)
13. “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty’.” (John 6:35, NIV)
14. “He [Jesus] said, ‘It is finished!’” (John 19:30, NKJV)
15. “By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.” (Acts: 3:16, NIV)
16. “And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31, ESV)
17. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith’.” (Romans 1:16-17, NIV)
18. "Even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction." (Romans 3:22, NASB)

demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:24-26, NKJV)
20. "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." (Romans 3:28, NIV)
21. "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’" (Romans 4:2-3, NIV)
22. “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4:4-6, ESV)
23. "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also" (Romans 4:11, NASB)
24. "So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe." (Romans 4:16, NLT)
25. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:1, NKJV)
26. “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9, NIV)
27. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:3, NASB)
28. “It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:16, NIV)
29. "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith" (Romans 9:30, NIV)
30. "Just as it is written, ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed’.” (Romans 9:33, NASB)

 

[Bonnie]

Hi Theo--we have done this subject to death on here, on this board and others....our responses won't change, and neither will the other person's. However, 5 years ago on here, someone compiled a list of verses that disprove salvation by grace plus works. It might have been you, but I don't know for certain, as I didn't make note of who it was. But here is the list:

Part 2:

31. "For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:3-4, NASB)
32. "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:9-10, NKJV)
33. “For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved’.” (Romans 10:13, ESV)
34. "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." (Romans 11:6, ESV)
35. "Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16, NASB)
36. “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” (Galatians 2:21, NASB)
37. “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?” (Galatians 3:2-3, NIV)
38. "So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, then understand that those who have faith are Abraham’s sons. Now the Scripture saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and told the good news ahead of time to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith."(Galatians 3:5-9, HCSB)
39. “Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.” (Galatians 3:11-12, NIV)
40. "In order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:14, NASB)
41. "But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:22, ESV)
42. “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24, NKVJ)
43. “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.” (Ephesians 1:7, NIV)
. “Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved.” (Ephesians 2:5, ESV)46. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, Not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, NKJV)
47. "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith." (Philippians 3:9, NASB)
48. “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance.” (Hebrews 11:8, NKJV)
49. “These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.” (Hebrews 11:13,16, HCSB)
50. “All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us. (Hebrews 11:39-40, HCSB)
51. "yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.“ (1 Timothy 1:16, NASB)
52. “He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.” (2 Timothy 1:9, NIV)
53. “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5, ESV)
54. “because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.” (Revelation 5:9, NIV)
55. “[Jesus] said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to the thirsty from the spring of living water as a gift’.” (Revelation 21:7, HCSB)
[/quote]

We cannot lay these aside these verses and focus ONLY on James 2:24. We must take ALL of them into consideration and look at them in light of what each says.

 

[Bonnie]

Theo, if you would like, please take a look at this:

I hope I did this correctly. But it shows how our works will do nothing to save us. But Washer brings up God's nature and why we need God Himself to save us.

 

[Bonnie]

Also, Theo, a Lutheran on that board wrote the following to our Mormon friend, like about 8 years ago on this site:

Round and round you go....... obviously in spite of knowing you are just clinging to a wrong strawman.

You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, beleived or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify.

Do note especially the bolded part. This, I think, is the very heart and crux of the matter--thinking that if something is connected to faith/grace, then that something must have the same function as faith/grace. Which is false. That is like saying that because our lungs and heart are connected, they both have the same function in our bodies. They do NOT, as we well know. Neither do works have the same function as faith in salvation--works PROVE that the faith is real and not just empty talk. In fact, one of the meanings of "justify" IS "prove." As when Jesus once said that "wisdom is justified (proven) by her children."