James 2:24 - for the 50 millionth time

GeneZ

Well-known member
edit

He also wants to bring up the same topic/proof-text that has been refuted 50 million times in the past.



James 2:24 doesn't deny salvation by faith alone.
It denies "justification" by faith alone.
And specifically what it is saying that just because someone CLAIMS to have faith, doesn't mean they actually do. Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
James was dealing with a specific problem that was taking place in Jerusalem.

Jewish believers were being persecuted by unregenerate religious Jews. Some believers were being boycotted and their businesses were going broke. So, when James said.... "

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?
Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing
about their physical needs, what good is it?
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not
accompanied by action, is dead."


James was telling them to stop using their faith as one waving a magic wand over someone. That real faith requires action to correct a problem. Their faith (in this case, used as wishful thinking) was using faith that was not justified.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Giving up this world is a continuous job. The world is constantly trying to pull His souls to it.
Eve, we live IN this world and must deal with it. That does not mean we are to be OF this world, those of us in Christ Jesus our Lord. We do not have the world's values, but the mind of Christ, by grace through faith in Him and what He did for us on the cross.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Then are you claiming a "true saving faith" isn't necessary for salvation?

Then why is it "true saving faith" then--if it isn't necessary to be saved? Theo--this is the same confused theology some post here, IMO.
there are many cults/isms that have a misplaced faith is a false god, christ and gospel. So there is a true gospel/false gospel, True God/false gods, True Christ/many false christs.

can a false god/idol save one from their sins ? yes or no

hope this helps !!!
 
Sorry, if this is my first post, without introducing myself. I have fought many fights as an agnostic, but that doesn't enlighten me all that often. Many times I have found that I can suddenly see something in the bible that I have been programmed not to. It's always a surprise. My first surprise was realizing there was no hell in the Torah. That was a long time ago.

On this James subject, it took me a long time to see that the bible lacks specificity. For example, it tells you to follow the sermon on the mount, and that this is like building your house on the rock. Many will come to me, and I will not know you, the gate is narrow blah blah.

If I do one thing in the sermon, perhaps giving some money to someone who asks, am I now building my house on the rock? Or, have I only built a little bit of it on the rock? How bad will the flood or storm be that destroys my house? Do I have to base everything I do on the sermon on the mount? How narrow is the gate? How big is few? I would assume that half of America is substantially bigger than "few", but that's just a guess. Really I'm supposed to be intimidated, aren't I?

In the case of James, OK, faith (whatever that is) is definitely dead without works, I think. How many works? How much faith do I need? A full tank?

Can somebody explain what faith is? Is it faith that Jesus saved us? Is it faith that Jesus even existed? Is it the type of faith Jesus seems to imply in the sermon, where you throw your money away, and have faith that God will give you your daily bread, and feed you like sparrows and lilies, without going down to the supermarket and buying urea-grown combine harvester output? Matt 6:30 says you have little faith, if you don't do this. I would assume that little faith is actually a bad thing.

Or is faith what you do by ignoring all the confusion in the bible, and just getting on with your life?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Sorry, if this is my first post, without introducing myself. I have fought many fights as an agnostic, but that doesn't enlighten me all that often. Many times I have found that I can suddenly see something in the bible that I have been programmed not to. It's always a surprise. My first surprise was realizing there was no hell in the Torah. That was a long time ago.

On this James subject, it took me a long time to see that the bible lacks specificity. For example, it tells you to follow the sermon on the mount, and that this is like building your house on the rock. Many will come to me, and I will not know you, the gate is narrow blah blah.

If I do one thing in the sermon, perhaps giving some money to someone who asks, am I now building my house on the rock? Or, have I only built a little bit of it on the rock? How bad will the flood or storm be that destroys my house? Do I have to base everything I do on the sermon on the mount? How narrow is the gate? How big is few? I would assume that half of America is substantially bigger than "few", but that's just a guess. Really I'm supposed to be intimidated, aren't I?

In the case of James, OK, faith (whatever that is) is definitely dead without works, I think. How many works? How much faith do I need? A full tank?

Can somebody explain what faith is? Is it faith that Jesus saved us? Is it faith that Jesus even existed? Is it the type of faith Jesus seems to imply in the sermon, where you throw your money away, and have faith that God will give you your daily bread, and feed you like sparrows and lilies, without going down to the supermarket and buying urea-grown combine harvester output? Matt 6:30 says you have little faith, if you don't do this. I would assume that little faith is actually a bad thing.

Or is faith what you do by ignoring all the confusion in the bible, and just getting on with your life?
Faith will manifest anything that you are determined to produce. If you have the faith, determination, you can do all things.
 
Faith will manifest anything that you are determined to produce. If you have the faith, determination, you can do all things.
Would you say that Christianity's failure to fix up the world, or have Jesus come back, is proof of all the damage done by Satan, or is it that there are too few true Christians to fix up the mess. What I'm drawing your attention to is that you have not quantified many of your words.

I know what you just said could be uttered by many self help gurus, and there is some truth in it.
 
You can do all things that God would have you to do. Not simply all things.
I was ruminating on the subject, and it occurred to me that this would be a response, however, if God doesn't want anything from you, then you can't show your faith through your works. The premise seems to be that you have volition to go against what God wants. Say I want to green the Sahara. We all know Elon Musk could do it, and he's not Christian :) But say I wanted to Green the Sahara with my 1% faith, and God didn't want me to do it, because he wanted the place to look dreary. It's a similar proposition to saying the devil wrecks everything up. The devil is working to God's plan.

Another way of putting it is that since God doesn't interfere with us on the average day (deist/atheist position), we are left simply making up reasons why God didn't help us do what we wanted, or attributing something that we did on our own to God.

A paradox is that it you are not backed by God, you can achieve what you want, like Elon, but God will block you when he backs you up. The reverse of what we would like in a religion.

I suppose another question would be : What degree of faith or walking with God, would be enough to settle a doctrinal dispute? Say there is one person out there, who walks with God, enough to settle doctrinal disputes, and everybody else is just noise. How do you determine who it is?
(This was an optional question. Obviously nobody has figured it out.) It was so much simpler when God just appeared and told you to kill your son. Now that's faith!
 

UncleAbee

Active member
Funny how James and Paul use the same scripture to make opposing points (or do they?).

James 2:21-34. - 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and [s]as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Rom 4:1-5 - What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

...... and the debate rages

I'll say more later.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Funny how James and Paul use the same scripture to make opposing points (or do they?).

James 2:21-34. - 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and [s]as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Rom 4:1-5 - What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

...... and the debate rages

I'll say more later.
Not really, when James is read in context. Though I see your (or do they?) :)

One meaning for "justified" is "vindicated/proven" as when Jesus said that "wisdom is justified by her children". Our good works vindicate us in the eyes of the world, that we are indeed true Christians. They cannot see into our hearts as God can. They can only see our works.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Would you say that Christianity's failure to fix up the world, or have Jesus come back, is proof of all the damage done by Satan, or is it that there are too few true Christians to fix up the mess. What I'm drawing your attention to is that you have not quantified many of your words.

I know what you just said could be uttered by many self help gurus, and there is some truth in it.
A Christian is Christ like and walk as God walks in His anointing and cannot fail. Problem is there are not very many Christians. Many use the name of Christian but dont have a clue what it is to have from the Father that what Jesus had of Him to be as He is and in His same image as Jesus was with the same signs following.

As far as Jesus coming back, he was very clear that the kingdom of God doesn't come with observation but is within you. You being that person of Christ that God demands of His anointing be your own. Want to see the return of Christ? BTW is Gods anointed, then a mirror is a good place to start and either you will be Gods anointed or you will not and seek Christ in someone else. He is at your door knocking this day.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Funny how James and Paul use the same scripture to make opposing points (or do they?).

James 2:21-34. - 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and [s]as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Rom 4:1-5 - What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

...... and the debate rages

I'll say more later.
Or--it may as some scholars now postulate--when Paul referenced "work" or "works of the Law"--that was a reference to the Mosaic Law.

IOW--Paul was indicating Abraham didn't "work"(Mosaic law)--because Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

The point being--the Jews ran to "father Abraham" to claim their elite status. Paul's point was--Abraham didn't live under the Mosaic Law--but the gospel--the same gospel Paul was preaching to them--and which they rejected, in lieu of the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--this did not escape him:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 

UncleAbee

Active member
I like your point dberrie. I do agree that when Paul said "works" he was discussing works of the law or the Mosaic law (Rom 3:28). Paul was responding to Judaizers who claimed that keeping the law was necessary for justification. Paul's argument was that Abraham was justified before the law (especially circumcision.) I think it may be a bit more involved though. I think maybe Paul and James were talking about faith from different aspects or viewpoints. I think for Paul 'faith" is placing your trust in the work that Christ did (Rom 3:21-26). I don't think he thought works weren't necessary to salvation just that works had no impact on justification. IMO Paul looks at salvation as a process that involves several things. James seems to look at "faith" as mental assent (James 2:18-19). He says that even the demons believe ( have faith). It seems to him that they operate differently out of that faith. They accept Jesus but don't follow Him. James and Paul seem to be approaching "faith" with different meanings. I think also that in James' community some had taken faith too far (James 2:14-17) and excluded works all together. I don't have to do anything for anybody but as long as I believe in Christ I am ok.

Since neither Paul nor James is here to set the record straight I admit I could be wrong. I think we all need to temper our posts with this approach. We are all left to interpret what we read and come to our own conclusions.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I like your point dberrie. I do agree that when Paul said "works" he was discussing works of the law or the Mosaic law (Rom 3:28). Paul was responding to Judaizers who claimed that keeping the law was necessary for justification. Paul's argument was that Abraham was justified before the law (especially circumcision.) I think it may be a bit more involved though. I think maybe Paul and James were talking about faith from different aspects or viewpoints. I think for Paul 'faith" is placing your trust in the work that Christ did (Rom 3:21-26). I don't think he thought works weren't necessary to salvation just that works had no impact on justification. IMO Paul looks at salvation as a process that involves several things. James seems to look at "faith" as mental assent (James 2:18-19). He says that even the demons believe ( have faith). It seems to him that they operate differently out of that faith. They accept Jesus but don't follow Him. James and Paul seem to be approaching "faith" with different meanings. I think also that in James' community some had taken faith too far (James 2:14-17) and excluded works all together. I don't have to do anything for anybody but as long as I believe in Christ I am ok.

Since neither Paul nor James is here to set the record straight I admit I could be wrong. I think we all need to temper our posts with this approach. We are all left to interpret what we read and come to our own conclusions.
I like that explanation, for the main. It makes a lot of sense to me. Especially the embolden part.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I like that explanation, for the main. It makes a lot of sense to me. Especially the embolden part.
That could be, and of course, you like it. :rolleyes: But in context, Paul means GOOD works, since he said in vs. 10, "for we are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

GOOD works are the outcome, the by-product of a true and living faith. They do not save us, but are the result, not the cause, of faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. As Paul wrote in Galations 5:6, NIV:

For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
That could be, and of course, you like it. :rolleyes: But in context, Paul means GOOD works, since he said in vs. 10, "for we are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

GOOD works are the outcome, the by-product of a true and living faith. They do not save us, but are the result, not the cause, of faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. As Paul wrote in Galations 5:6, NIV:
Question for Bonnie--you have claimed, on a number of occasions--that a faith without works isn't a "true living faith"--right?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I was ruminating on the subject, and it occurred to me that this would be a response, however, if God doesn't want anything from you, then you can't show your faith through your works. The premise seems to be that you have volition to go against what God wants. Say I want to green the Sahara. We all know Elon Musk could do it, and he's not Christian :) But say I wanted to Green the Sahara with my 1% faith, and God didn't want me to do it, because he wanted the place to look dreary. It's a similar proposition to saying the devil wrecks everything up. The devil is working to God's plan.

Another way of putting it is that since God doesn't interfere with us on the average day (deist/atheist position), we are left simply making up reasons why God didn't help us do what we wanted, or attributing something that we did on our own to God.

A paradox is that it you are not backed by God, you can achieve what you want, like Elon, but God will block you when he backs you up. The reverse of what we would like in a religion.

I suppose another question would be : What degree of faith or walking with God, would be enough to settle a doctrinal dispute? Say there is one person out there, who walks with God, enough to settle doctrinal disputes, and everybody else is just noise. How do you determine who it is?
(This was an optional question. Obviously nobody has figured it out.) It was so much simpler when God just appeared and told you to kill your son. Now that's faith!
Here is the news....

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road
that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate
and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."


Millions of people get saved. MANY! And, millions of them run around like chickens with their heads cut off when it comes to facing realities we now find ourselves in. They take the broad and wide worldtof finding some place to worship that makes them feel comfortable in their flesh.

Only a few out of the many will find the life that Jesus came and died to give us all. For now, here on earth. "Life more abundantly."

You are not going to settle a doctrinal dispute for all Christians. For all would have to be filled with the Spirit to have that happen. Few will find it for that reason.

Many have become players and actors.. learning the scripts they are to follow as to please like minded believers who walk according to similar emotions. Give them sound doctrine that contradicts their way of thinking? It won't happen. Only a few will find it.

I have no illusions about being here.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Question for Bonnie--you have claimed, on a number of occasions--that a faith without works isn't a "true living faith"--right?
A faith not accompanied by works of love is not a true, living faith. Butvthat does not mean those works save us. So, to head you off at the pass, josiah wrote this to you years ago:
Round and round you go....... obviously in spite of knowing you are just clinging to a wrong strawman.

You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, beleived or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify
.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
A faith not accompanied by works of love is not a true, living faith.
If that is true--then works are more than the by-product of a true, living faith, as, as you testified--it's not even true, living faith without works:

Bonnie said: GOOD works are the outcome, the by-product of a true and living faith.

Bonnie--faith alone theology seems to be a confused doctrine--especially as you describe it.
 
Top