James 2:24 - for the 50 millionth time

[UncleAbee]

That could be, and of course, you like it. But in context, Paul means GOOD works, since he said in vs. 10, "for we are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

GOOD works are the outcome, the by-product of a true and living faith. They do not save us, but are the result, not the cause, of faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. As Paul wrote in Galations 5:6, NIV:

Hello Bonnie. I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. "Good works" you quoted is found in Eph 2:10. We are in Romans Ch's 3 & 4. These are different thoughts on different subjects in different books. The works that Paul discusses in Rom 4 is clearly the works of the law from his earlier conversation (Rom 3:28). In my view Paul sees salvation as a process that faith and works play roles albeit different roles. Faith brings about justification. This is not the ending of the salvation process. Works are necessary after justification (Rom 2:6-8, 6:1-7).

 

[Bonnie]

Hello Bonnie. I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. "Good works" you quoted is found in Eph 2:10. We are in Romans Ch's 3 & 4. These are different thoughts on different subjects in different books. The works that Paul discusses in Rom 4 is clearly the works of the law from his earlier conversation (Rom 3:28). In my view Paul sees salvation as a process that faith and works play roles albeit different roles. Faith brings about justification. This is not the ending of the salvation process. Works are necessary after justification (Rom 2:6-8, 6:1-7).

I know. Paul excluded both as to what saves us for eternal life. Good works are the outcome of a living faith. We do them IN salvation, not for salvation.

Paul also states in Titus 3

4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Thanks for your input.

 

[dberrie2020]

I know. Paul excluded both as to what saves us for eternal life.

Paul may have excluded works or obedience from what saves us--but Paul did connect works and the Kingdom of God together:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

IOW--Paul did believe the obedient receive of God's grace unto life.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

 

[Bonnie]

Paul may have excluded works or obedience from what saves us--but Paul did connect works and the Kingdom of God together:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

IOW--Paul did believe the obedient receive of God's grace unto life.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

Connected does not mean having the same function. My heart and lungs are connected to each other via blood vessels, but that does not mean they each have the exact same function in My body.

Paul is talking about the unregenerated, who do not confess their sins and believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, in Gal.5:19-21. But what a selective quoted you are, dberrie! As usual! Because what did Paul write AFTER these verses? This:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24 Those who BELONG to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

See? The reason these will not practice the acts listed in vs. 19-21 is spelled out for us in vs. 24. Read it.

 

[dberrie2020]

Connected does not mean having the same function.

Bonnie--if works are connected to inheriting the Kingdom of God--then faith alone theology is false--regardless of what "function" you believe it has.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Faith alone theology demands all works to be exclusive in inheriting eternal life--period.

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[UncleAbee]

I know. Paul excluded both as to what saves us for eternal life. Good works are the outcome of a living faith. We do them IN salvation, not for salvation.

Paul also states in Titus 3



Thanks for your input.

Thanks for your thoughts as well. I think good works are an outcome of faith and a part of salvation and I think Paul would disagree with you (Rom 2:6-8).

 

[Bonnie]

Bonnie--if works are connected to inheriting the Kingdom of God--then faith alone theology is false--regardless of what "function" you believe it has.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Faith alone theology demands all works to be exclusive in inheriting eternal life--period.

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Wrong. Being connected does not mean each has the same function. As Josiah once wrote to you on the Lutneran board. 5 or so years ago:

Round and round you go....... obviously in spite of knowing you are just clinging to a wrong strawman.

You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, beleived or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify.

 

[Bonnie]

Tjanks for your thoughts as well. I think good works are an outcome of faith and a part of salvation and I think Paul would disagree with you (Rom 2:6-8).

You're welcome..But I do not think Paul would disagree. After all, we do acts of love IN faith in Jesus Christ, because Paul said we are CREATED in Christ Jesus for good works, and it is God Who enables us to walk in them.

 

[Bonnie]

Bonnie--if works are connected to inheriting the Kingdom of God--then faith alone theology is false--regardless of what "function" you believe it has.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Faith alone theology demands all works to be exclusive in inheriting eternal life--period.

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Which is to BELIEVE on Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free. "This is the WORK of God, that you BELIEVE on Him Whom God has sent."

 

[UncleAbee]

You're welcome..But I do not think Paul would disagree. After all, we do acts of love IN faith in Jesus Christ, because Paul said we are CREATED in Christ Jesus for good works, and it is God Who enables us to walk in them.

Lol ... "Tjanks" ... I need to learn how to spell. I changed it but I guess not before you picked it up. I'd like to hear your opinion on Rom 2:5-8 - But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said:
Bonnie--if works are connected to inheriting the Kingdom of God--then faith alone theology is false--regardless of what "function" you believe it has.

Wrong. Being connected does not mean each has the same function.

The works being connected to entering the Kingdom of God is a salvational condition, and a contradiction to faith alone theology--and guising that in a "function" clause won't change that, IMO.

Paul connected these works in a way as to deny access to the Kingdom of God----and there is no other way to inherit the Kingdom of God--than to enter therein:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

That also connects works and "life everlasting".

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

 

[GeneZ]

If you are limited it is because you do not have the tenacity to manifest it. Limitation is your own doing.

Ok.. Mr. Tenacious... Create the universe while you are at it.

It has to be God's will. I can do all things God willed for my life through Christ.

God is not going to supply his grace enabling to do something outside of His will. It must be God's will. Not some self willed, self glory impulse, as exhibited too often by arrogant believers.

 

[Gary Mac]

Ok.. Mr. Tenacious... Create the universe while you are at it.

It has to be God's will. I can do all things God willed for my life through Christ.

God is not going to supply his grace enabling to do something outside of His will. It must be God's will. Not some self willed, self glory impulse, as exhibited too often by arrogant believers.

The universe is already created I only live in it just as Jesus lived in it. But as with jesus I am in it but not of it.

Gods will is that you be like Him, same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus, same walk as He walks in His same light, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

You are trying to mix the things of this world with the things of God which simply is Love, nothing more or anything less for God is Love and man is the temple of Him.

Either you are like Him or you are not.

 

[GeneZ]

The universe is already created I only live in it just as Jesus lived in it. But as with jesus I am in it but not of it.

Gods will is that you be like Him, same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus, same walk as He walks in His same light, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

You are trying to mix the things of this world with the things of God which simply is Love, nothing more or anything less for God is Love and man is the temple of Him.

Either you are like Him or you are not.

And, you are the only one here who is like him... interesting.

 

[Bonnie]

Bonnie--if works are connected to inheriting the Kingdom of God--then faith alone theology is false--regardless of what "function" you believe it has.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Faith alone theology demands all works to be exclusive in inheriting eternal life--period.

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

You are wrong, dberrie. Reread my posts 45 and 48.

the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24 Those who BELONG to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

See? The reason these will not practice the acts listed in vs. 19-21 is spelled out for us in vs. 24. Read it.

"For it is by grace you are saved, through faith--and that is NOT of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF God--and NOT by works, so no one may boast."
If we are saved by Grace through faith faith and NOT by works--what is there left to be saved by?

If our own imperfect works help to save us, then that makes us the Savior of us, NOT Jesus. No he does not need our help. Can we do anything better than He can?

 

[GeneZ]

He is not justified onto salvation from the lake of fire? Or, salvation from the evils we find in this world?

Faith without works will not save you from the present evils we find in this world!

Read carefully and see that we have more than one salvation to contend for.

For the quality of one's works justifies the faith of the one claiming to have faith!


In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have
had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the
proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which
perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor
when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love
him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are
filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end
result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was
to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find
out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was
pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories
that would follow." 1 Peter 1:6-11


Faith that is justified is faith proven to be genuine faith!

Works are required to prove if we have real faith. Or our faith based upon false doctrines and beliefs!
Or, only our emotions and not the filling of the Spirit.

Faith without works is a faith that is not proven to be real and genuine.

 

[Gary Mac]

And, you are the only one here who is like him... interesting.

Seems to be by their replies!

 

[GeneZ]

Seems to be by their replies!

When are you going to wash my feet? Maybe? You can arrange for me to walk on water, but only at ankle level, so you won't need to do that.

You're so humble. How could I ever be like that?

 

[Gary Mac]

When are you going to wash my feet? Maybe? You can arrange for me to walk on water, but only at ankle level, so you won't need to do that.

You're so humble. How could I ever be like that?

When are you going to wash mine?

To humble self is to set aside self in your own ways and laws that govern your beliefs and put on the Christ for yourself in which is obvious is not in your beliefs to do so.

And all who are of Christ walk on the storms of this life daily. You totally miss the message in walking over these storms and sink in them just as Peter did. You jump out of the boat from impulse only to discover that you failed miserably to follow Him on how to walk on that water.

 

[GeneZ]

When are you going to wash mine?

To humble self is to set aside self in your own ways and laws that govern your beliefs and put on the Christ for yourself in which is obvious is not in your beliefs to do so.

And all who are of Christ walk on the storms of this life daily. You totally miss the message in walking over these storms and sink in them just as Peter did. You jump out of the boat from impulse only to discover that you failed miserably to follow Him on how to walk on that water.

I am going to be humble.

I am going to put you on Ignore.

For I am commanded by God's Word to avoid certain believers.