James 2:24 - for the 50 millionth time

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I am going to be humble.

I am going to put you on Ignore.

For I am commanded by God's Word to avoid certain believers.
Yes you should follow Him in His ways and stop listening to whoever you are listening to that would keep you from being that person of Christ that God sent Jesus to show you what that is to be in the Father yourself. . The reason you ignore me is you have no intent in following Him in His ways and you are caught in your own sins and do not know how to respond to His truths.

To be humble is to set aside self and be like Him. And God did not command you to not be as He is at all.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Lol ... "Tjanks" ... I need to learn how to spell. I changed it but I guess not before you picked it up. I'd like to hear your opinion on Rom 2:5-8 - But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Hi--Whom Paul is talking about in these verses in the first Part is in vs. 5: the stubbornly Unrepentant. There were unbelievers mixed in with believers in the Roman church. They did not obey the Gospel, and believe it, thus, they did not believe or obey the truth. Instead, they obey unrighteousness--sin.

Believers seek for glory in doing good for honor and immortality. But it is to glorify God in Christ Jesus, not themselves. As Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 6:
do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.(1Cor. 10]
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Hi--Whom Paul is talking about in these verses in the first Part is in vs. 5: the stubbornly Unrepentant. There were unbelievers mixed in with believers in the Roman church. They did not obey the Gospel, and believe it, thus, they did not believe or obey the truth. Instead, they obey unrighteousness--sin.

Believers seek for glory in doing good for honor and immortality. But it is to glorify God in Christ Jesus, not themselves. As Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 6:
Believer do not seek the glory of doing good at all.

It isnt a matter of good doing but good being. In that all the glory is Gods not ours.
 

UncleAbee

Active member
Hi--Whom Paul is talking about in these verses in the first Part is in vs. 5: the stubbornly Unrepentant. There were unbelievers mixed in with believers in the Roman church. They did not obey the Gospel, and believe it, thus, they did not believe or obey the truth. Instead, they obey unrighteousness--sin.

Believers seek for glory in doing good for honor and immortality. But it is to glorify God in Christ Jesus, not themselves. As Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 6:

Hello Bonnie. I just want to focus on the part bolded in red above. Where does Paul say this in Romans up to this verse? How did you conclude this?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
edit

He also wants to bring up the same topic/proof-text that has been refuted 50 million times in the past.



James 2:24 doesn't deny salvation by faith alone.
It denies "justification" by faith alone.
And specifically what it is saying that just because someone CLAIMS to have faith, doesn't mean they actually do. Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).
It simply means that the works are the fruits or evidence of a saving faith.

The second theologically inept thing this poster does is to IGNORE the bulk of Scripture, which teaches that salvation IS by "faith alone" (by stating it comes by faith, and excluding any "works"):

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
How can you have salvation by faith alone when faith without works is dead?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
How can you have salvation by faith alone when faith without works is dead?
Because the “faith” James is referring to is merely a CLAIM to have faith (James 2:14), rather than true saving faith.

Edit to add: I just went back to see what was in my post that you responded to, and I had ALREADY quoted James 2:14 (which you IGNORED), as well as quoting many "not by works" passages (which you likewise IGNORED).

So I'm guessing you don't believe the Bible, since you ignore all those passages?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Abraham was long saved before The Lord commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.

Yet, it says Abraham's faith was "justified" by works.

Our faith is what we believe after salvation. Is it genuine? Or, is it based upon false doctrine?

Abraham's faith was "certified as being genuine" when he offered up Isaac. Justified!

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have
been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being
much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may
be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom
having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing,
you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your
faith—the salvation of your souls."
1 Pet 6-9

That speaks of being "justified by faith."

As long as your faith is proven genuine? Not simply religion? You are justified in what you do in God's eyes.!
What you do by faith.....

grace and peace
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
How can you have salvation by faith alone when faith without works is dead?
When someone believes? At that moment of faith in Christ? ... ITS THE ONE WORK GOD SEEKS!



Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered,

The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


John 6:28-29



We are not saved by "works."

Works are a system of various things prescribed by men to do in order to win God's approval.

Instead, we are saved BY ONE WORK alone. "Believing in Christ." = Faith. Comes from one work approved of by God.

We are saved by one work while under the influence of God's enabling grace. That work that save us is faith = believing in Jesus Christ!

grace and peace ........
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Because the “faith” James is referring to is merely a CLAIM to have faith (James 2:14), rather than true saving faith.
Nope James is talking about the same faith and he explained that some claim to have it without works. He asked show me your faith without works. Can you show faith without works? He goes on to say he will show his faith by works. The onus is on you to show your faith without works. James put a stop to that by saying faith without works is dead.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Abraham was long saved before The Lord commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.

Yet, it says Abraham's faith was "justified" by works.

Our faith is what we believe after salvation. Is it genuine? Or, is it based upon false doctrine?

Abraham's faith was "certified as being genuine" when he offered up Isaac. Justified!

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have
been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being
much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may
be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom
having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing,
you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your
faith—the salvation of your souls."
1 Pet 6-9

That speaks of being "justified by faith."

As long as your faith is proven genuine? Not simply religion? You are justified in what you do in God's eyes.!
What you do by faith.....

grace and peace
How was Abraham saved before Jesus died for his sins?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

Sorry, you are wrong.

James is talking about the same faith and he explained that some claim to have it without works. He asked show me your faith without works. Can you show faith without works? He goes on to say he will show his faith by works. The onus is on you to show your faith without works. James put a stop to that by saying faith without works is dead.

Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Eph. 2:8-9, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) 2 Tim. 1:9, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Tit. 3:5, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Rom. 4:1-5, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Rom. 11:5-6, that proves you wrong.

You see (pay attention, everyone!) this is what Mormons do.
They hide behind one or two out-of-context "prooftext", and then they ignore the BULK of the Bible that proves them wrong.

That's why it's impossible to reason with them.
They don't actually BELIEVE the Bible (rejecting all those passages I cited).
They simply EXPLOIT the Bible with things like "faith without works is dead", trying to convince Christians who don't know their Bible very well, to convert to the cult of Mormonism.

The onus is on you to show your faith without works. James put a stop to that by saying faith without works is dead.

I already did.
You simply rejected it with a big, fat, "Nuh-HUH!", as if you have the authority of God yourself.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Sorry, you are wrong.



Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Eph. 2:8-9, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) 2 Tim. 1:9, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Tit. 3:5, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Rom. 4:1-5, that proves you wrong.
Of course, if you would bother to read (or address) Rom. 11:5-6, that proves you wrong.

You see (pay attention, everyone!) this is what Mormons do.
They hide behind one or two out-of-context "prooftext", and then they ignore the BULK of the Bible that proves them wrong.

That's why it's impossible to reason with them.
They don't actually BELIEVE the Bible (rejecting all those passages I cited).
They simply EXPLOIT the Bible with things like "faith without works is dead", trying to convince Christians who don't know their Bible very well, to convert to the cult of Mormonism.



I already did.
You simply rejected it with a big, fat, "Nuh-HUH!", as if you have the authority of God yourself.
You seem to be implying that those verses are saying that James is wrong.It was James who wrote faith without works is dead, not me.So obviously you are using the verses out of context. You still haven't shown your faith without works... And it is you who posted a big fat nope. By faith people take action (works) Paul made a list. Imagine Jesus kept telling his disciples they had little faith. Do you think that James doesn't know what he is saying when he says faith without works is dead.?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You seem to be implying that those verses are saying that James is wrong.

No, I'm saying that those verses are saying that your MISINTERPRETATION of James is wrong.

That's why you RUN AWAY from all those passages.

It was James who wrote faith without works is dead, not me.

Yes, and HE wrote that the "faith" he was talking about was a CLAIMED faith, not a real faith.
So you are MISREPRESENTING what he wrote.

And that's why you RUN AWAY from Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.

Why is the Mormon religion so BANKRUPT that they have to rig the discussion with, "You have to address all MY verses, but I don't have to address ANY of yours?"

Don't you feel ashamed of yourself?
Aren't you embarrassed?
You should be.

So obviously you are using the verses out of context.

<Chuckle>
Typical Mormon response.

Okay, SHOW us that they are "out of context", by actually ADDRESSING those passages.

You can't.
And you won't.
Because you know they contradict your beliefs.
Do you think that James doesn't know what he is saying when he says faith without works is dead.?

What I KNOW is that YOU don't understand what James meant.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
No, I'm saying that those verses are saying that your MISINTERPRETATION of James is wrong.

That's why you RUN AWAY from all those passages.



Yes, and HE wrote that the "faith" he was talking about was a CLAIMED faith, not a real faith.
So you are MISREPRESENTING what he wrote.

And that's why you RUN AWAY from Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.

Why is the Mormon religion so BANKRUPT that they have to rig the discussion with, "You have to address all MY verses, but I don't have to address ANY of yours?"

Don't you feel ashamed of yourself?
Aren't you embarrassed?
You should be.



<Chuckle>
Typical Mormon response.

Okay, SHOW us that they are "out of context", by actually ADDRESSING those passages.

You can't.
And you won't.
Because you know they contradict your beliefs.


What I KNOW is that YOU don't understand what James meant.
No, I'm saying that those verses are saying that your MISINTERPRETATION of James is wrong.
How is repeating what James said misinterpreting James? You are the one who is saying ...HE wrote that the "faith" he was talking about was a CLAIMED faith, not a real faith. James did not write that...you did...there is no mention of real faith you are making up stuff.
That's why you RUN AWAY from all those passages.
I am not running away, you are running away from what James actually wrote.
Yes, and HE wrote that the "faith" he was talking about was a CLAIMED faith, not a real faith.
So you are MISREPRESENTING what he wrote.
show me that quote from James sir...
And that's why you RUN AWAY from Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(1) it says here through faith... so salvation is by grace... through faith, therefore, faith requires you to do something in vs 9 the works spoken of there are works of the law of Moses.
titus 3:5 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Works of righteousness is talking about the law bro... You will be judged accotding to your works.sir...
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Why is the Mormon religion so BANKRUPT that they have to rig the discussion with, "You have to address all MY verses, but I don't have to address ANY of yours?"
Why are you talking about Mormons? We are discussing James are we not?
Don't you feel ashamed of yourself?
Aren't you embarrassed?
You should be.
Why should I be? I am not ashamed of the truth. You are the one who doesn't seem to know the difference between works of faith and works of the law
<Chuckle>
Typical Mormon response.
Why are you implying that I am a Mormon? God didn't call me to be a Mormon.


Okay, SHOW us that they are "out of context", by actually ADDRESSING those passages.
You are assuming that works of the law and works of faith are the same works in Eph 2 therefore you are out of context


You can't.
And you won't.
Because you know they contradict your beliefs.
I just did but you don't have the understanding to know the difference between works of faith and works of the law..
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What I KNOW is that YOU don't understand what James meant.
I understand what James wrote bro ... I don't understand what you believe he meant. You believe what you believe he meant not what he wrote.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(1) it says here through faith... so salvation is by grace... through faith, therefore, faith requires you to do something

Wrong.
Nowhere does that passage say, "faith requires you to do something".
You are ADDING to the word of God.

in vs 9 the works spoken of there are works of the law of Moses.

Wrong again.

NOWHERE does Paul say, "not by the works OF MOSES".
You are ADDING to the word of God.

titus 3:5 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Works of righteousness is talking about the law bro...

Wrong again.
NOWHERE does Paul say "The works of the law".

And FYI, I am not your "bro", so please stop being so insulting.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Because the “faith” James is referring to is merely a CLAIM to have faith (James 2:14), rather than true saving faith.

Edit to add: I just went back to see what was in my post that you responded to, and I had ALREADY quoted James 2:14 (which you IGNORED), as well as quoting many "not by works" passages (which you likewise IGNORED).

So I'm guessing you don't believe the Bible, since you ignore all those passages?
so here are James exact words..14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Clearly James is saying Faith and works go together...Notice the question...can faith save him? Do you believe faith can save you without works?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James is clear He said faith if it doesn't have works it is dead. therefore works give life to faith. No mention of true saving faith...You keep making up stories bro...
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Wrong.
Nowhere does that passage say, "faith requires you to do something".
You are ADDING to the word of God.
Since you disagree are you saying that faith require that you do nothing?
Wrong again.
why? because you say so?
NOWHERE does Paul say, "not by the works OF MOSES".
You are ADDING to the word of God.
Nowhere did I say, "not by the works OF MOSES". You are adding to my words
I
Wrong again.
NOWHERE does Paul say "The works of the law".
he wrote works referring to the law of Moses..
And FYI, I am not your "bro", so please stop being so insulting.
And I am not a Mormon but you kept implying that I am You toe the line if you want me to toe the line bro..
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Since you disagree are you saying that faith require that you do nothing?

I'm interested in what the BIBLE says.

Please quote where the BIBLE (not you) says "faith requires you to do something".

You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof".

1) You make a bankrupt claim.
2) You provide ZERO evidence for it.
3) Someone challenges your claim.
4) You demand THEY prove their position, even when YOU have never proven YOURS.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Nowhere did I say, "not by the works OF MOSES". You are adding to my words
I

he wrote works referring to the law of Moses..

You continue to make the same false claim.
Eph. 2:8-9 makes ZERO mention of "Moses".

And I am not a Mormon but you kept implying that I am You toe the line if you want me to toe the line bro..

FYI, I am not your "bro".
Please do not be so insulting as to call me "bro".
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I'm interested in what the BIBLE says.
edit...the bible says faith without works is dead...You are saying true saving faith.
Please quote where the BIBLE (not you) says "faith requires you to do something".
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof".

1) You make a bankrupt claim.
My claim is faith without works is dead...I get that from James are you saying that James is making a bankrupt claim also?
2) You provide ZERO evidence for it.
the scripture is my evidence...it does not say true saving faith
3) Someone challenges your claim.
They also challenged the scripture saying James meant to say true saving faith
4) You demand THEY prove their position, even when YOU have never proven YOURS.
I have a right to demand you prove where James said that
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Why, because of the truth?
You continue to make the same false claim.
Eph. 2:8-9 makes ZERO mention of "Moses".
Ok ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is speaking to gentiles here. Gentiles were not saved by works of the Law as were the Jews who made a boast of their position.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Paul is clear about abolishing the Law vs 15...therefore the reference in vs 9 is about works of the law. notice he mentions another works in vs 10
we are created unto good works... If they are the same "works" then it is a contradiction in terms...
FYI, I am not your "bro".
Please do not be so insulting as to call me "bro".
Ok I won't edit
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
edit..the bible says faith without works is dead...You are saying true saving faith.
edit
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James is only ONE book of the Bible.
There are 65 other books, which you IGNORE.

You would do well to read the book of Romans.

Eph. 2:8-9 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
2 Tim. 1:9 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
Tit. 3:5 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
Rom. 4:1-5 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
Rom. 11:5-6 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.

.I get that from James are you saying that James is making a bankrupt claim also?

<sigh>

I get tired of repeating myself.

I'm NOT saying that James is wrong.
I'm saying your MISINTERPRETATION of Jame is wrong.

Do you not understand the difference?!

\

Ok ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is speaking to gentiles here. Gentiles were not saved by works of the Law as were the Jews who made a boast of their position.

You are making a FALSE claim.

Nothing in Ephesians is saying that Paul is "speaking to gentiles here".

 
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