James 2:24 - for the 50 millionth time

Theo1689

Well-known member
edit..the bible says faith without works is dead...You are saying true saving faith.
edit
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James is only ONE book of the Bible.
There are 65 other books, which you IGNORE.

You would do well to read the book of Romans.

Eph. 2:8-9 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
2 Tim. 1:9 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
Tit. 3:5 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
Rom. 4:1-5 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.
Rom. 11:5-6 proves your misinterpretation of James to be false.

.I get that from James are you saying that James is making a bankrupt claim also?

<sigh>

I get tired of repeating myself.

I'm NOT saying that James is wrong.
I'm saying your MISINTERPRETATION of Jame is wrong.

Do you not understand the difference?!

\

Ok ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is speaking to gentiles here. Gentiles were not saved by works of the Law as were the Jews who made a boast of their position.

You are making a FALSE claim.

Nothing in Ephesians is saying that Paul is "speaking to gentiles here".

 
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Bonnie

Super Member
If you are limited it is because you do not have the tenacity to manifest it. Limitation is your own doing.
God gives each believer spiritual gifts. Not all have the same gifts. So, no, limitation much of the time is NOT our own doing.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hello Bonnie. I just want to focus on the part bolded in red above. Where does Paul say this in Romans up to this verse? How did you conclude this?
I came to that conclusions because of the context. He is writing to the church in Rome. There are sometimes hypocrites in churches. He appears to be warning those in the church who were hypocrites, passing judgments on others, storing up wrath, not repenting, etc. Such are not true Christians, IMO. Hence, Paul's warning to them. In vs. 17, he appears to be addressing the Jewish converts about this, in the Roman church, who put too much trust in God's law and in being Jewish. And that being a Jew with the LoM won't save them.
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
Nothing in Ephesians is saying that Paul is "speaking to gentiles here".
Here is Eph 2 speaking to gentiles... Is someone going to edit the scripture again?
Eph 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
How was Abraham saved before Jesus died for his sins?
Can God fail at anything He sets out to do? No.

God already saw Jesus as sacrificed when the creation of our world was put into motion.

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names
have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was
slain from the creation of the world
."
Revelation 13:8



Abraham had faith. Yet, because the Cross had not yet been fulfilled when Abraham believed in God? Abraham had too wait beneath the earth in Paradise until the Cross actually took place.

Once the Blood of Christ had been actually shed in time on the Cross? Abraham's soul was then taken out of Paradise, and taken to Heaven when Jesus ascended.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You seem to be implying that those verses are saying that James is wrong
It's been my experience--that anything which violates faith alone theology will be unceremoniously chunked out the window by some. The Bible is no exception.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Funny how James and Paul use the same scripture to make opposing points (or do they?).

James 2:21-34. - 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and [s]as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Rom 4:1-5 - What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

...... and the debate rages

I'll say more later.
Hi Uncle:

Paul's point was Abraham didn't live under the Law of "works"(Mosiac Law)--but rather--under the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The "works" used in James is obedience to the gospel--the "works" Paul was referring to was certain rituals found in the Mosaic Law.

Paul's point in Romans 4?---that the Jews ran to "father Abraham" to claim their elect status, and yet--Abraham didn't live under the Mosaic Law, as Abraham was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law--but that Abraham lived under the gospel--the same gospel Paul was attempting to bring to them, in which they were rejecting, in lieu of the Mosaic Law.
 

UncleAbee

Active member
Hello Dberrie. My answers to your quotes in red.

Paul's point was Abraham didn't live under the Law of "works"(Mosiac Law)--but rather--under the gospel of Jesus Christ. - There was no "gospel of Christ" in Abraham's day. Abraham certainly wasn't under the Mosaic law because it hadn't come into existence yet. Paul's argument point was that Abraham was justified by God before the Mosaic law on the basis of faith. This means that the law (especially circumcision) doesn't justify. I don't think Paul wasn't bringing the gospel of Christ into the argument.

The "works" used in James is obedience to the gospel--the "works" Paul was referring to was certain rituals found in the Mosaic Law. - Agreed.

Paul's point in Romans 4?---that the Jews ran to "father Abraham" to claim their elect status, and yet--Abraham didn't live under the Mosaic Law, as Abraham was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law--but that Abraham lived under the gospel--the same gospel Paul was attempting to bring to them, in which they were rejecting, in lieu of the Mosaic Law. - Exactly. The Jews were making a bad argument.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
It's been my experience--that anything which violates faith alone theology will be unceremoniously chunked out the window by some. The Bible is no exception.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
faith alone theology is a violation of the scripture...
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
"Abraham! Take you your only son Isaac and offer him to me as a sacrifice."

"Yes, Lord."


Now that was a work by faith! Abraham did not hear some preacher telling the congregation to offer their sons to God.
It was a work unique to Abraham. Not the guy next door.

Our works are not to be cookie cutter works assigned to us by some church committee.. or some good works organization.

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do
."
- Ephesians 2:10

Too many believers substitute doing good works and neglect what God truly desires - growing in grace and knowledge of God's Word. Pitiful wasted spiritual lives, yet think because they do good works (of men's design) that they please God.

God has works planned for you! But, first you must do the good work of growing in grace and knowledge in understanding God's Word. In other words? One work all assigned to us is the following. Seek and find a church where the pastor teaches and can exegete God's Word in depth and detail as to make you capable of becoming wise.

Doing works does not require any understanding. And, religions always demand works as a substitute for growing in grace and knowledge!


But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18


grace and peace.......
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
"Abraham! Take you your only son Isaac and offer him to me as a sacrifice."

"Yes, Lord."


Now that was a work by faith! Abraham did not hear some preacher telling the congregation to offer their sons to God.
It was a work unique to Abraham. Not the guy next door.

Our works are not to be cookie cutter works assigned to us by some church committee.. or some good works organization.

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do
."
- Ephesians 2:10
Back then God spoke to Abraham. Now in this time God sent Jesus to give us the holy spirit to speak to us.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Too many believers substitute doing good works and neglect what God truly desires - growing in grace and knowledge of God's Word. Pitiful wasted spiritual lives, yet think because they do good works (of men's design) that they please God.
If someone substitute doing good works and neglect what God truly desires they don't qualify as a believer.
God has works planned for you! But, first you must do the good work of growing in grace and knowledge in understanding God's Word. In other words? One work all assigned to us is the following. Seek and find a church where the pastor teaches and can exegete God's Word in depth and detail as to make you capable of becoming wise.
This doesn't say seek a church...
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
paul does not say a pastor who teaches and can exegete God's Word in depth can make you wise...
2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Doing works does not require any understanding. And, religions always demand works as a substitute for growing in grace and knowledge!
How did you get a Job sir?
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18


grace and peace.......
If you don't understand what this means, how can you do it sir?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
If you don't understand what this means, how can you do it sir?
That's the problem....

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18

People like their own opinions. Growing in grace and *knowledge* was designed by God to take care of that problem.

The problem is? God only gives grace to the humble.

The truth will come out at the evaluation of the saints. As for now, we must navigate a spiritual obstacle course. Without the proper knowledge one will not make it to the finished line. But, may hang out where they stumbled awaiting those whom they can trip up desiring to continue in the race.



For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed
with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives,
the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
— even though only as one escaping through the flames."
2 Corinthians 3:11-15


All will be saved. But, not all will be blessed with their rewards. So be careful. Keep seeking until you find a good pastor-teacher.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
edit

He also wants to bring up the same topic/proof-text that has been refuted 50 million times in the past.



James 2:24 doesn't deny salvation by faith alone.
It denies "justification" by faith alone.
And specifically what it is saying that just because someone CLAIMS to have faith, doesn't mean they actually do. Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.

That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).
It simply means that the works are the fruits or evidence of a saving faith.

The second theologically inept thing this poster does is to IGNORE the bulk of Scripture, which teaches that salvation IS by "faith alone" (by stating it comes by faith, and excluding any "works"):

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Excellent post very clear and precise, easy to understand. Here's my two cents:

Faith justifies the believer, but works justify the faith. God sees our faith on the inside, but we demonstrate our faith on the outside. Faith is the root of salvation, but works are the fruit of salvation…
I just really don't understand why it's so hard for some people to grasp it.​
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
That's the problem....

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18

People like their own opinions. Growing in grace and *knowledge* was designed by God to take care of that problem.
So why are you giving your own opinion sir? This is just a few verses before the one you cherrypicked...
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
The problem is? God only gives grace to the humble.
you are misquoting the scripture sir..
1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Clearly, grace was given before anyone was humble
The truth will come out at the evaluation of the saints.
the truth is already out
As for now, we must navigate a spiritual obstacle course.
the course ie straight and narrow
Without the proper knowledge one will not make it to the finished line.
God has given us the necessary knowledge,
2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
But, may hang out where they stumbled awaiting those whom they can trip up desiring to continue in the race.
that would be those with itching ears
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed
with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives,
the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
— even though only as one escaping through the flames."
2 Corinthians 3:11-15


All will be saved. But, not all will be blessed with their rewards. So be careful. Keep seeking until you find a good pastor-teacher.
Are you saying that hell will be empty sir? You are advising men to seek men sir.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
edit

He also wants to bring up the same topic/proof-text that has been refuted 50 million times in the past.



James 2:24 doesn't deny salvation by faith alone.
It denies "justification" by faith alone.
And specifically what it is saying that just because someone CLAIMS to have faith, doesn't mean they actually do. Their subsequent works JUSTIFY their claims of having faith.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

First notice that this poster quotes James 2:24, but IGNORES the context of what comes prior to it, namely in verse 14. And here James is talking about someone who CLAIMS ("says") he has faith. We can't read hearts or minds, so we can't know whether his claim is actually true or not. And the rhetorical question here is "can a faith that doesn't produce works" save someone, and the answer is obviously "no". A true saving faith WILL have works, and that's why James says in v.24 that the man (and his claim to having faith) is "justified" by his works.
There is no mention of true saving faith...it's just faith...Faith without works is dead plain and simple. James is talking about people in the church it follows that they must have faith, to begin with. On this matter let Jesus be the judge.
Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Matthew 16:8
Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
It is evident that the dispute is not about having faith but how much and what accompanies the faith. Peter had faith to step out on the water but not enough to walk on it. That is not to say the other disciples had no faith. If they didn't they wouldn't be following Jesus in the first place. So Since James is writing to followers of Jesus it follows that they have faith in Jesus. Since you are saying that they only claim to have faith, that suggest they don't have faith and are making a false claim.
Paul believes that God gave every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
So why would James think some men only claim to have faith?
That doesn't meant that salvation requires those works (it doesn't).
It simply means that the works are the fruits or evidence of a saving faith.
Yet that is not written anywhere in the scripture. No mention of saving faith.
The second theologically inept thing this poster does is to IGNORE the bulk of Scripture, which teaches that salvation IS by "faith alone" (by stating it comes by faith, and excluding any "works"):

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
There is no discussion if one cannot understand the difference between works of the law and works of faith.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
So why are you giving your own opinion sir? This is just a few verses before the one you cherrypicked...
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

you are misquoting the scripture sir..
1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Clearly, grace was given before anyone was humble

the truth is already out

the course ie straight and narrow

God has given us the necessary knowledge,
2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

that would be those with itching ears

Are you saying that hell will be empty sir? You are advising men to seek men sir.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Newbirth? Nothing is new with you.. Seen it before. I am going to find out how to use the Ignore function in this new forum. Galsighting I do not tolerate. Bye!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Excellent post very clear and precise, easy to understand. Here's my two cents:

Faith justifies the believer, but works justify the faith. God sees our faith on the inside, but we demonstrate our faith on the outside. Faith is the root of salvation, but works are the fruit of salvation…
I just really don't understand why it's so hard for some people to grasp it.​
Good works vindicate faith. They prove it. Like that song we used to sing in the Luther Chapel at college--"They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love. Yes, they will know we are Christians by our love."
 

Bonnie

Super Member
i’ve never seen love in these forums.
I have. Lots of times. I have seen people on several boards being kind and patient. But showing up a person's doctrinal and Biblical errors is not unloving...we are to earnestly contend for the truth and to bring error to light. Is it loving to let people die in their sins, because none of us would proclaim the truth?
 
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