James 2:24

[dberrie2020]

Unless you can demonstrate how you can "obey him" without doing "works", you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Again--the LDS don't believe eternal life is by works, obedience to Christ, enduring to the end, etc.

They believe it's by God's grace one is saved--which goes to them which obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--what is there about repentance and water baptism you don't consider obedience to Christ--and what is there about the remission of sins you don't consider as God's grace?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Revelation 22:14----King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Theo1689]

Acts 2:38---King James Version
Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
Revelation 22:14----King James Version

I love how Mormons feel they are honouring God by RUNNING AWAY from his Scriptures:

Rom. 3:19-20...
Eph. 2:8-9...
2 Tim. 1:9...
Tit. 3:5...
Rom. 4:1-6...
Rom. 11:5-6...
etc...
etc...

If these passages are true (and they are), then Mormonism is DESTROYED (and it is).

But Mormons will RUN AWAY from all the passages which contradict their false teachings, and expect people to join them in rejecting the word of God, and instead TWISTING a few "proof-texts" (such as James 2:26).
Hypocrites, one and all.

 

[dberrie2020]

<sigh>
This thread is for discussing James 2, since YOU keep obsessing over that verse.

If you're not interested in discussing James 2, PLEASE LEAVE, and stop polluting my thread.

<sigh>
This thread is for discussing James 2, since YOU keep obsessing over that verse.

If you're not interested in discussing James 2, PLEASE LEAVE, and stop polluting my thread.

LOL. And just where do you find James2:24 in the post I responded to?

Theo1689 said:
It's funny that when you quoted Eph. 2:8, you DELETED the part where it showed it is COMPLETELY "independent of our deeds":

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Theo--it seems you have run out of room. That is your post above?

 

[Theo1689]

LOL. And just where do you find James2:24 in the post I responded to?

Thank you for admitting you didn't even bother to READ the thread...

Theo--it seems you have run out of room. That is your post above?

And so you are utterly destroyed, so you have to resort to worthless self-congratulation.

 

[dberrie2020]

I love how Mormons feel they are honouring God by RUNNING AWAY from his Scriptures:

Rom. 3:19-20...
Eph. 2:8-9...
2 Tim. 1:9...
Tit. 3:5...
Rom. 4:1-6...
Rom. 11:5-6...
etc...
etc...

If these passages are true (and they are), then Mormonism is DESTROYED (and it is).

I'm going to point you back to my posts addressing this same accusation:

"How so? The LDS do not believe salvation is the result of works. They believe it is by God's grace--which grace God extends to them who obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--what is there about repentance and water baptism you don't consider obedience to Christ--and what is there about the remission of sins you don't consider as God's grace?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Revelation 22:14----King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Aaron32]

Baptism is a necessary ordinance,

Yes, following Jesus Christ is a necessary ordinance. Most Christians would agree with this, they just put in the context of "faith in action"

it gets us through the gate

Baptism is the gate - faith and repentance gets us to and through the gate.

and lets us proceed with all the other necessary ordinances we perform for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom...

All other "necessary ordinances" are for exaltation, not salvation - teaching us the laws that operate in his Kingdom.

Christians only preach one heaven and one hell...

"There are two kingdoms only"

faith alone satisfies the first principle of the Gospel, Faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ...

If we believe "faith without works is dead" and "works is the evidence of our faith" then faith (as a principle of action) unscored everything else that follows.

they do receive resurrection or saved from physical death, its a gift to all...

Yes, it's a gift about as much as our physical bodies now are a gift from God.

 

[RCM]

If one connects works with the reality of "underlying faith"--then it is more than just evidence, IE---



1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

You are assuming that you have righteousness

How did you get God's righteousness???

There is no one righteous (Romans 3)

Righteousness cannot be attained from keeping the law (Galatians 2)


So, how did you get your righteousness???


You have completely take 1 John 3:7 out of context, just like you take James 2:24 out of its context so you can support your counterfeit gospel that Jesus rejects in Matthew 7:21-23



RCM

 

[dberrie2020]

You are assuming that you have righteousness

Cite, please. The scriptures have nothing to do with what either I nor you assume.

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If that is true--the theology the critics pawn here is false--regardless of one's judgment about what they do--or don't do.

There is no one righteous (Romans 3)

There is no one who is righteous--who does not seek after God:

Romans 3:11-12---King James Version
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

That is a reference to those under the Mosaic Law--and before the Atonement--who had all gone astray.

How does that compare to the gospel message?

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Righteousness cannot be attained from keeping the law (Galatians 2)

We don't live under the Mosaic Law--but the gospel.

The Galatians returned to the Mosaic Law--after being converted into the gospel. Paul maintained his message:

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

[RCM]

Cite, please. The scriptures have nothing to do with what either I nor you assume.

Paul was writing to people under the New Covenant!

You are a charlatan and a huckster

The Biblical Scriptures have destroyed your mormon heresy completely

You cannot answer any of the questions, so you start to peddle the lie that Paul writings are addressing those under mosaic law?


You have no integrity!


RCM

 

[RCM]

Again--the LDS don't believe eternal life is by works, obedience to Christ, enduring to the end, etc.

They believe it's by God's grace one is saved--which goes to them which obey Him:

Do you even look at what you write?

Your two sentences are contradictory

You say LDS don't believe that eternal life is by obedience to Christ

Then you turn right around and say that God's grace goes to those who obey Him


That is works!


RCM

 

[Janice Bower]

Are you saying that Scripture doesn't mean what it says?

To understand a topic, you need to know what God says about it in the Bible, not what you see by plucking a single verse.

 

[Janice Bower]

Do you even look at what you write?

Your two sentences are contradictory

You say LDS don't believe that eternal life is by obedience to Christ

Then you turn right around and say that God's grace goes to those who obey Him


That is works!


RCM

Yes, he's ignoring the teachings of Mormonism! Maybe those teachings are confusing him.

Strict obedience to these laws in the spirit of the first and great commandment—“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second [which] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matt. 22:37, 39)—will help one to obey the law of the land and the celestial law of heaven as it applies to mortality.

The Rule of Law

The Rule of Law

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Obedience is the first law of heaven, the cornerstone upon which all righteousness and progression rest. It consists in compliance with divine law, in conformity to the mind and will of Deity, in complete subjection to God and his commands.

President Bednar

www2.byui.edu

The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that “all kingdoms have a law given; and … there is no space in the which there is no kingdom” (D&C 88:36–37). Thus, it is clear that all things in the vast immensity of space are under the influence of law. All things are controlled, governed, and upheld by law—“nothing is exempt.” Nothing is arbitrary or left to chance. The “same invarying result always flows from the same cause.” The principles of eternal law “are immutable, eternal, everlasting.” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 433.)

Enrichment G: The Nature and Purpose of Law

Enrichment G: The Nature and Purpose of Law-Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Articles of Faith 1

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

“Celestial law (see also Celestial Kingdom, Celestial Marriage, Consecration, Obedience) is that law by obedience to which men gain an inheritance in the kingdom of God in eternity. It is the law of the gospel, the law of Christ, and it qualifies men for admission to the celestial kingdom because in and through it men are “sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost,” thus becoming clean, pure and spotless (3 Nephi 27:19-21).

“And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ,” the Lord says, “must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.” (D&C 88:21-22) Those who have the companionship of the Holy Ghost and are guided thereby in their lives are “able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom” including the law of consecration or anything else the Lord might ask of them. They are the ones- “united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom” (D&C 105:1-5)-will build up Zion in the last days.
(Mormon Doctrine, p.117, bold font added)

https://www.tihie.com/uploads/1/7/9/8/17987575/celestial_law[4655].pdf

 

[dberrie2020]

Do you even look at what you write?

Your two sentences are contradictory

You say LDS don't believe that eternal life is by obedience to Christ

That is correct--eternal life is by God's grace--not by obedience.

Then you turn right around and say that God's grace goes to those who obey Him

That is correct--what does save one unto eternal life--is God's grace--and that grace goes to them which obey God:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's the huge elephant left sitting in the room for the critics here. IOW--once we accept that we are saved by God's grace--the critics here leave it at that. But there still remains a question which has to be asked--IE--who does God give that grace to? Answer--to them which obey Him.

That is works!

Bingo!!!! "works" according to obedience to the gospel--not "works" according to the Mosaic Law.(as Paul would often use it)

 

[Theo1689]

That's the huge elephant left sitting in the room for the critics here. IOW--once we accept that we are saved by God's grace--the critics here leave it at that. But there still remains a question which has to be asked--IE--who does God give that grace to? Answer--to them which obey Him.

Did you hear about that store that's giving away free magazines? Sports magazines, firearms magazines, fashion magazines, puzzle magazines, all kinds. They're giving them away for free!

But Mormons always leave it at that. But there still remains a question which has to be asked-IE-who does the magazine owner give that magazine to? Answer--to them which give him $10.00.

But it's "free".

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said:
Cite, please. The scriptures have nothing to do with what either I nor you assume.

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Paul was writing to people under the New Covenant!

Of course he is--or were under the covenant. How does that somehow mitigate the testimony of John above?

The Biblical Scriptures have destroyed your mormon heresy completely

LOL. And just what concerning 1John3:7 do you feel destroys LDS theology?

You cannot answer any of the questions, so you start to peddle the lie that Paul writings are addressing those under mosaic law?

The posted scripture I addressed was to those under the Mosaic Law, IE--

Romans 3:11-12---King James Version
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

That is an OT quote, Psalm14--before the NT Atonement and Resurrection of Christ. All were condemned due to the Fall, no one did good, all gone out of the way, etc.

 

[Theo1689]

The posted scripture I addressed was to those under the Mosaic Law, IE--

Romans 3:11-12---King James Version
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Wrong.
And a perfect example of your "proof-texting", since you IGNORED context:

Rom. 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.”

 

[dberrie2020]

Did you hear about that store that's giving away free magazines? Sports magazines, firearms magazines, fashion magazines, puzzle magazines, all kinds. They're giving them away for free!

But Mormons always leave it at that. But there still remains a question which has to be asked-IE-who does the magazine owner give that magazine to? Answer--to them which give him $10.00.

But it's "free".

Where does anyone find this as "free"?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I believe you are confusing the free gift of eternal life--as an opportunity to all to inherit eternal life--where His Atonement absolved all of the condemnation of the Fall--and opened up the doors of eternal life for all--IE--

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You might have that confused with the personal reception of eternal life, or--the forgiveness of our personal sins. That grace isn't free, as that is conditional on our walk in the light--as the above scripture shows.

 

[dberrie2020]

Wrong.
And a perfect example of your "proof-texting", since you IGNORED context:

Rom. 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.”

And Paul lists all those things as a condition until:

Romans 3:21-25---King James Version
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

IOW--now we have the Atonement--where all men are justified freely through His Atonement--referred to as the Redemption, up to then--men could not be redeemed:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And it was Christ's Blood which Redeemed all men--

and the forgiveness of sins, that are past-- is made available, and offered to all men--through Christ's righteousness(the Atonement--where it took a perfect sacrifice--Christ's righteousness)--His Blood applied to personal forgiveness of sins upon this condition:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

IOW--all men were released for the condemnation of the Fall, IE--were redeemed from the Fall--and have the opportunity to receive the forgiveness of their personal sins through their walk in the light. We now answer for only our personal choices.

Theo--as a side note--Romans3:11-12 was an OT quote--to those under the Mosaic Law. That it applied to Greek and Jew until the Atonement--- is established in Romans3, but that still represents the OT covenant, without Redemption. All men were under sin--or--condemned due to the Fall--and chose evil--with no way to redeem themselves--is an established doctrine of the Biblical text, as to those without the Redemption of all men--which occurred in the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:21-25---King James Version
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested

 

[Janice Bower]

dberrie2020 said:
Cite, please. The scriptures have nothing to do with what either I nor you assume.

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Of course he is--or were under the covenant. How does that somehow mitigate the testimony of John above?



LOL. And just what concerning 1John3:7 do you feel destroys LDS theology?



The posted scripture I addressed was to those under the Mosaic Law, IE--

Romans 3:11-12---King James Version
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

That is an OT quote, Psalm14--before the NT Atonement and Resurrection of Christ. All were condemned due to the Fall, no one did good, all gone out of the way, etc.

@dberrie2020, Are you saying that Abraham didn't do good?

 

[Bonnie]

Are you saying that Abraham didn't do good?

I say Abe did "good" very well, but did so IN FAITH in God, as Hebrews 11 makes clear.