James 2:24

Mesenja

Well-known member
Well, I've never been to that website, so I'm not arguing with Pettibone. So I've never called his arguments "word salad". I called YOUR argument "word salad". Now I'm confused. Are you claiming that YOU are "Charles Pettibone"?

I used his exegesis of Ephesians 2:8-9 and acknowledged this with the following reply to your post Theo1689 said:That is NOT how you exegesis. Post a Comment to Charles Pettibone. I’m sure he’ll appreciate your characterization of his post Exegeting Ephesians 2:8-10 as word salad. Maybe you can share a good laugh with him. Your avoiding responding to it. So yes if I used his argument then you are arguing with Charles Pettibone and characterizing his arguments as "word salad" You are selling red herrings. I'm. not buying any.
 

Mod10

Moderator
Staff member
No I did not plagiarize Elder David Bednar. I summarized what he said in my own words. It’s irrelevant what font I used. It’s irrelevant whether I personally know Hebrew or Greek. What’s material is that other people are knowledgeable in Hebrew and Greek. It’s irrelevant your opinion of whether I can write this well. My post is not original. I relied upon several different sources. That doesn’t mean that I am guilty of plagiarizing. I’m guessing that you don’t have a rebuttal.
Note for Mesenja--always cite sources when your posts are not original, and even if you are summarizing what someone else wrote. Also, only two links per post allowed for non-Super members.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Romans 5:18 (Mormon style)

Justification of life = redeemed= resurrection.

But you leave out:

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

All men are condemned until they are regenerated. They are unsaved and not seeking God.

John 5:28-29
28 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
I love how Mormons feel they are honouring God by RUNNING AWAY from his Scriptures:

Romans 3:19-20

The Works of the Law

Author: James Akin
THE WORKS OF THE LAW
James Akin

Romans 3:20 is the first occurrence of the expression "works of the Torah" (Gk., ergon nomou) in Paul. This term is familiar in modern preaching as "works of the law," however it would be more properly translated in context as "works of Torah," since the law (nomos) Paul is everywhere speaking of in Romans and Galatians is the Mosaic Law (Torah;nomos being the common Septuagint translation of the Hebrew term "Torah";see the parallel essay,"The Law in Paul" for further discussion).
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member

The Works of the Law

Author: James Akin
THE WORKS OF THE LAW
James Akin

Romans 3:20 is the first occurrence of the expression "works of the Torah" (Gk., ergon nomou) in Paul. This term is familiar in modern preaching as "works of the law," however it would be more properly translated in context as "works of Torah," since the law (nomos) Paul is everywhere speaking of in Romans and Galatians is the Mosaic Law (Torah;nomos being the common Septuagint translation of the Hebrew term "Torah";see the parallel essay,"The Law in Paul" for further discussion).
This has zilch to do with what the other poster said. Try to focus. A teaching from another person unless completely read is of no value to the conversation.

This is not a link.


Go back to post 103 and follow the advice given by a mod.
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
Only if a person has no ability to properly exegete scripture.

Then properly exegete James 2:21-4.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member

Then properly exegete James 2:21-4.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Do you know what the rest of the Bible teaches about works salvation? This is the problem. These verses say something else. The Basic rule for interpreting scripture is that scripture should always be interpreted in light of other scripture.


Ephesians 2:89
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.



Every good gift good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know the with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).

And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).


 

Mesenja

Well-known member
This has zilch to do with what the other poster said. Try to focus. A teaching from another person unless completely read is of no value to the conversation.

This is not a link.


Go back to post 103 and follow the advice given by a mod.
The "works of the law," would be more properly translated in context as "works of Torah," since the law (nomos) Paul is everywhere speaking of of in Romans and Galatians is the Mosaic Law.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member

Do you know what the rest of the Bible teaches about works salvation? This is the problem. These verses say something else. The Basic rule for interpreting scripture is that scripture should always be interpreted in light of other scripture.


Ephesians 2:89
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Every good gift good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know the with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).

And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).


Was Abraham justified or vindicated by works?
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member



Was Abraham justified or vindicated by works?
Once again, you show your ignorance of the Bible.


There are those who insist that we have here a contradiction to the apostle Paul. Did not Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith — not by works? Paul makes a very specific statement in Romans:

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath something of which to glory, but not before God. (Romans 4:2)

Then over in Galatians 3:6 we read,

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Based on your posts, I see no evidence of critical textualism. Next. Jimmy Akin deplored Mormonism.

In [Romans] 2:7 Paul stated that God would reward those who persevered "in well-doing" (lit., "in good work") by giving them eternal life or immortality (as well as glory and honor). But this is precisely what Paul says works of Torah will not get one because Torah does not give the power to deal with sin. (Thus there is a distinction in Paul's mind between "good work" and "works of Torah.") THE WORKS OF THE LAW Author:James Akin
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
James 2:24 says:You see that a man is justified (δικαιόω justify) by works and not by faith alone.
Romans 3:28 says:For we
maintain that a man is justified (δικαιόω justify) by faith apart from works of the Law.
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
Do you know what the rest of the Bible teaches about works salvation? This is the problem. These verses say something else. The Basic rule for interpreting scripture is that scripture should always be interpreted in light of other scripture.

"Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God. Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline.' Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).

 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Do you know what the rest of the Bible teaches about works salvation?
Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God. Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline. Or thinking that after paying rent for our home, we now hold title to the entire planet earth. Elder Dieter F. Uchdorf

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him,“Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God. Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline. Or thinking that after paying rent for our home, we now hold title to the entire planet earth. Elder Dieter F. Uchdorf

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him,“Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” 2 Nephi 25:23

Eph. 2:
8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
You can only get to "faith alone" after going through Romans 3:19-20 (which you guys keep RUNNING AWAY from), and learning that NO amount of works can get you there. And sadly, that is the lesson that Mormons are still failing to learn.

And in [Romans] 2:15 Paul stated that when Gentiles do by nature what Torah requires they show that "what the Torah requires" (lit., "the work of Torah") is written on their hearts. This is the core of Torah which is really important—the same thing Paul has in mind in [Romans] 8:3-4 when he says that God has done what Torah could not do by sending his Son to condemn sin in the flesh, "in order that the just [righteous] requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us" (8:4). The "work of Torah" of [Romans] 2:15 is thus the same as "the righteous requirement of the Torah" of [Romans]8:4. It, not all the Torah's commands about diet and festival and ceremony, is what is written on the hearts of Gentiles and which Christ died in order to empower us to accomplish. THE WORKS OF THE LAW Author:Jimmy Akin
 
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