Jeremiah 23:28 and John 1:1b

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Here is my take.

This is Hebrew parallelism. The "dream" and "word" are both messages from God to the prophet that are intended to be told to others.

Both the dream and the word are "in" the prophet. The dream and word are not "with" the prophet.

The προς αυτόν is the accusative object. I would take that to be the object of "tell", (to him), the neighbor of the previous verse.

---

27
who devise that men may forget my law by their dreams, which they have told every one to his neighbour ...

28
Let the prophet
in whom there is the dream
tell his dream [to his neighbor, from the
previous verse]

and

let him
in whom my word is
to him [ie neighbor] tell
my word in truth.

If you say the word is "with" the prophet, there is no parallel to John 1:1. There the word is προς God, not “with” a prophet of God.

Oh my ! αυτόν as in πρὸς αὐτόν is the ὁ προφήτης.... The verse is saying

".... and the prophet that hath my Word with him (meaning the prophet),.." In other words, the prophet who is in custody of God's Word.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Just noticed that Brenton LXX translation is actually very good, except that it adds "spoken to" into the translation:

The prophet who has a dream, let him tell his dream; and he in whom is my word spoken to him, let him tell my word truly: what is the chaff to the corn? so are my words, saith the Lord.

Change "spoken to" to "with" or "towards" and you have a faithful translation, like so :

The prophet who has a dream, let him tell his dream; and he in whom is my word with him ( πρὸς αὐτόν), let him tell my word truly: what is the chaff to the corn? so are my words, saith the Lord.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The grammatical structure is identical:


Jeremiah 23:28

To make it easier to compare the relevant portion with John 1:1b, we can put the above as follows καὶ [ὁ προφήτης ἐν ᾧ] ὁ λόγος μου ἐστιν πρὸς αὐτόν

vs



Both constructions have two singular referents, ( ὁ λόγος being common to both as one of the substantives, and a thing in Jeremiah 23:28 to boot!), and both have πρὸς with the to be ἐστιν verb and a substantive in the accusative. At Jeremiah ὁ προφήτης is a person and ὁ λόγος is a thing. In the same way at John 1:1b ὁ λόγος is also a thing, and τὸν Θεόν is of course an individual. Trinitarians can provide nothing comparable to this for their position.

best wishes to everyone,

One does not need to think about this issue very hard. Some people are suggesting that a first century Koine Greek speaker could not ever possibly say that an inanimate thing can possibly be πρὸς another person or thing. It's an absurd claim. The language has no regard for whether either thing is living or not.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
One does not need to think about this issue very hard. Some people are suggesting that a first century Koine Greek speaker could not ever possibly say that an inanimate thing can possibly be πρὸς another person or thing. It's an absurd claim. The language has no regard for whether either thing is living or not.

I did not say that. My POV is that if προς are the words of someone their words are not προς themself. We never clearly see this in any passage and it makes no sense logically.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I did not say that. My POV is that if προς are the words of someone their words are not προς themself. We never clearly see this in any passage and it makes no sense logically.

Once the word came to be προς a prophet, was the word προς the prophet? The word was προς him?
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I have not found in the Greek of the GNT & or the LXX where the following syntax >> Singular Substantive + to be verb + προς + Accusative Singular Substantive << ever denotes that a person is with another person. This is not good for the Trinitarian and JW reading of the text of John 1:1b, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Found another one in Ezekiel ,

7:3 νῦν τὸ πέρας πρὸς σέ καὶ ἀποστελῶ ἐγὼ ἐπὶ σὲ καὶ ἐκδικήσω σε ἐν ταῗς ὁδοῗς σου καὶ δώσω ἐπὶ σὲ πάντα τὰ βδελύγματά σου
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Another,

21:3 καὶ ἐρεῗς πρὸς τὴν γῆν τοῦ Ισραηλ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ πρὸς σὲ καὶ ἐκσπάσω τὸ ἐγχειρίδιόν μου ἐκ τοῦ κολεοῦ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐξολεθρεύσω ἐκ σοῦ ἄδικον καὶ ἄνομον
 
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