Jerusalem IsThe Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great Of Revelation Chapter 17

Truth7t7

Active member
No worries. Glad we got it cleared up!

Glad to find common ground!

I believe the concept of antichrist is unrelated to the apocalyptic concepts. Antichrist pertains to Gnosticism in the latter part of the first century which came after the fall of Jerusalem in any strength. Its a term that can generally applied today to anyone who denies Christ came in the flesh.

I do believe in a 1st century fulfillment of the Tribulation.

I believe in a yet future Resurrection of the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15) and final Judgement Day at the end of time. When that comes, those without sin will go to Heaven. Those with sin to Gehenna. Both for eternity. Time will be at an end so there won't be anything going on here in the Earth. We aren't told what happens to it after Judgement.
Thanks for the response

1. (The Beast) of Revelation Chapter 13 a concept? Fulfilled? Future?

2. Once again, a future literal visible return of Jesus Christ in the heavens?
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Rome under Nero. Fulfilled. 666 is literally Neron Kesar.

Yes. Future, literal, visible. 1 Cor 15 is not apocalyptic or metaphorical.
Ok your Partial Preterist, that being a fulfilled antichrist and tribulation, and future literal second coming

Are you in the reformed churches, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Dutch, Etc?

Nero fulfilled (The Beast) of Rev 13 in 66AD?

How do you account for the future second coming, and (The Beast) being destroyed at his coming as seen in the scripture below, Jesus Didnt return in 66AD, its future?

Revelation 19:11-20KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9KJV
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
How do you account for the future second coming, and (The Beast) being destroyed at his coming as seen in the scripture below, Jesus Didnt return in 66AD, its future?

Revelation 19:11-20KJV

Revelation 19:11​

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Christ from Revelation 6:2; Revelation 3:14.

Revelation 19:12​

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Christ from Revelation 1:14; Revelation 2:18. The many crowns are those cast before the throne Revelation 4:4; Revelation 4:10. They represent the authority Christ has over all those who have submitted to Him.

Revelation 19:13​

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The priestly vesture of Christ is immersed in blood indicating His sacrifice as the Lamb. This verse is referred to by John later in John 1:1-3,14. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is God.

Revelation 19:14​

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

These are the Christians going out to conquer the world through the gospel. This is another reason to view the image in chapter 6 as a precursor to the fall of Jerusalem. The gospel was preached to the Jews and as many as could be converted were. The army of the rider of the white horse is distinct from that of the other riders which were the various Roman legions.

Revelation 19:15​

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

A. out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:

This is the gospel in its power to condemn all nations, both Jew and Gentile: Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 1:16; Revelation 2:12.

B. he shall rule them with a rod of iron

This is Christ ruling with the gospel (a scepter and a corrective rod used against sheep who have gone astray), which is the New Law, with which He rules all nations, both Jew and Gentile: Psalm 2; Isaiah 11:4; Revelation 2:27.

C. he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Christ is the one who has brought about the destruction just covered.

Revelation 19:16​

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

I doubt any question this is Christ. It is nearly self evident and certainly a basic truth of the gospel.

Revelation 19:17-18​

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The messenger of Christ speaks and the message is interesting to me. All of the birds of heaven are called to the supper of the great God. Christ’s wedding feast is equated with the destruction of Jerusalem. The wedding reception or feast, a celebration of all that is new, is pictured as the end of all the old (Hebrews 8). I had never thought of this until typing this just now and it is, to borrow a word from a new friend of mine, profound!

Revelation 19:19​

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is essentially a recap or summary of what has gone before. Rome and Judah were set to make war against Christ and the church.

Revelation 19:20​

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

They lost. The sea beast, the earth beast, they were cast into the lake of fire. This is emblematic of a cessation of persecution (not an end to Rome or the Emporer worship). [Historically, when Nero died, Vespasian took focus away from persecution of Christians and instead he focused on consolidating the Empire and cooling the rebellions throughout it.]
2 Thessalonians 2:7-9KJV
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
This has nothing to do with the concept of antichrist. This is Nero and the Caesar worship cult.
 

Truth7t7

Active member

Revelation 19:11​

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Christ from Revelation 6:2; Revelation 3:14.

Revelation 19:12​

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Christ from Revelation 1:14; Revelation 2:18. The many crowns are those cast before the throne Revelation 4:4; Revelation 4:10. They represent the authority Christ has over all those who have submitted to Him.

Revelation 19:13​

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The priestly vesture of Christ is immersed in blood indicating His sacrifice as the Lamb. This verse is referred to by John later in John 1:1-3,14. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is God.

Revelation 19:14​

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

These are the Christians going out to conquer the world through the gospel. This is another reason to view the image in chapter 6 as a precursor to the fall of Jerusalem. The gospel was preached to the Jews and as many as could be converted were. The army of the rider of the white horse is distinct from that of the other riders which were the various Roman legions.

Revelation 19:15​

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

A. out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:

This is the gospel in its power to condemn all nations, both Jew and Gentile: Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 1:16; Revelation 2:12.

B. he shall rule them with a rod of iron

This is Christ ruling with the gospel (a scepter and a corrective rod used against sheep who have gone astray), which is the New Law, with which He rules all nations, both Jew and Gentile: Psalm 2; Isaiah 11:4; Revelation 2:27.

C. he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Christ is the one who has brought about the destruction just covered.

Revelation 19:16​

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

I doubt any question this is Christ. It is nearly self evident and certainly a basic truth of the gospel.

Revelation 19:17-18​

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The messenger of Christ speaks and the message is interesting to me. All of the birds of heaven are called to the supper of the great God. Christ’s wedding feast is equated with the destruction of Jerusalem. The wedding reception or feast, a celebration of all that is new, is pictured as the end of all the old (Hebrews 8). I had never thought of this until typing this just now and it is, to borrow a word from a new friend of mine, profound!

Revelation 19:19​

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is essentially a recap or summary of what has gone before. Rome and Judah were set to make war against Christ and the church.

Revelation 19:20​

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

They lost. The sea beast, the earth beast, they were cast into the lake of fire. This is emblematic of a cessation of persecution (not an end to Rome or the Emporer worship). [Historically, when Nero died, Vespasian took focus away from persecution of Christians and instead he focused on consolidating the Empire and cooling the rebellions throughout it.]

This has nothing to do with the concept of antichrist. This is Nero and the Caesar worship cult.
"Thanks for your response", I better understand historicism now

I disagree in the symbolism of roman legions and horses,and the symbolic representation of the lake of fire in Rev 19:20 being Roman persecution, trying to move Revelation Chapter 19 to 66-70AD

Is that the actual position of the Church of Christ on Rev 13 (The Beast) and Rev Chapter 19?

Do you believe in a future final great white throne judgement Rev 20:11-15

Do you believe in a future lake of fire in eternal torment for the wicked?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Is that the actual position of the Church of Christ on Rev 13 (The Beast) and Rev Chapter 19?
Unfortunately, the church of Christ isn't very knowledgeable these days on prophecy. Most of your bench warmers will say that Revelation is just a book that means "God wins" and they don't know the OT at all. Elders and preachers hold different positions: fall of Rome, generic amillennialism, idealism. None of them that I am aware of are millennialists.
Do you believe in a future final great white throne judgement Rev 20:11-15
Past.
Do you believe in a future lake of fire in eternal torment for the wicked?
Past.

Everything in Revelation is already fulfilled and was done so by the end of the first century AD.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Unfortunately, the church of Christ isn't very knowledgeable these days on prophecy. Most of your bench warmers will say that Revelation is just a book that means "God wins" and they don't know the OT at all. Elders and preachers hold different positions: fall of Rome, generic amillennialism, idealism. None of them that I am aware of are millennialists.

Past.

Past.

Everything in Revelation is already fulfilled and was done so by the end of the first century AD.
Thanks for the response

We disagree, not a matter of salvation

I don't see how you believe in a future second coming, and cant see it in the revelation, it's full of what I see as the second coming

Once again thanks, Jesus is the Lotd
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Thanks for the response

We disagree, not a matter of salvation

I don't see how you believe in a future second coming, and cant see it in the revelation, it's full of what I see as the second coming

Once again thanks, Jesus is the Lotd
You are welcome. Thank you as well.
 
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