Jesus as Son of God before becoming a human

[Lilel01]

There are at least four recorded events that marked Jesus as God's special Son:

1) at the time of his conception in the womb of Mary;
2) at the time of his baptism;
3) at the moment when God shows to others that he has been approved by him as Son, at the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:5);
4) at the time of his resurrection (Rom. 1:4).

... but there is obviously one, the principal event, that marked Jesus as the Firstborn and Only Begotten Son of God in the most important sense:

5) a time in the remote past when Jesus was begotten as Jehovah's first living production.

 

[johnny guitar]

There are at least four recorded events that marked Jesus as God's special Son:

1) at the time of his conception in the womb of Mary;
2) at the time of his baptism;
3) at the moment when God shows to others that he has been approved by him as Son, at the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:5);
4) at the time of his resurrection (Rom. 1:4).

... but there is obviously one, the principal event, that marked Jesus as the Firstborn and Only Begotten Son of God in the most important sense:

5) a time in the remote past when Jesus was begotten as Jehovah's first living production.

The Son is ETERNALLY begotten of The Father.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Lilel01 and johnny guitar,

There are at least four recorded events that marked Jesus as God's special Son:
... but there is obviously one, the principal event, that marked Jesus as the Firstborn and Only Begotten Son of God in the most important sense:
5) a time in the remote past when Jesus was begotten as Jehovah's first living production.

The Son is ETERNALLY begotten of The Father.

The title “firstborn” as applied to Jesus does not relate to some sort of begettal from eternity or in the remote past before the creation, but it was future to the time of David.
Psalm 89:27 (KJV): Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
First is not first in time but first in status. Jesus was to in the future from David's time replace the firstborns of the nations, as stated here "the kings of the earth". The pattern of firstborn is revealed with Cain and Abel, Esau and Jacob, Manasseh and Ephraim and other examples, where the first son born is replaced by the faithful son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings Lilel01 and johnny guitar,


The title “firstborn” as applied to Jesus does not relate to some sort of begettal from eternity or in the remote past before the creation, but it was future to the time of David.
Psalm 89:27 (KJV): Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
First is not first in time but first in status. Jesus was to in the future from David's time replace the firstborns of the nations, as stated here "the kings of the earth". The pattern of firstborn is revealed with Cain and Abel, Esau and Jacob, Manasseh and Ephraim and other examples, where the first son born is replaced by the faithful son.

Kind regards
Trevor

We are speaking of The ONLY begotten Son of God, begotten in ETERNITY.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

We are speaking of The ONLY begotten Son of God, begotten in ETERNITY.

The begettal of the Son of God is clearly stated in Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 and these teach that Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is the father and Mary is his mother in the conception / birth process. Jesus is thus THE ONLY begotten Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

The begettal of the Son of God is clearly stated in Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 and these teach that Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is the father and Mary is his mother in the conception / birth process. Jesus is thus THE ONLY begotten Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

The CONCEPTION of the MAN, Jesus Christ is clearly stated in Matthew 1:20-21; Luke 1:34-35 and this conception was BY The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father. John 1:14 tells us The ETERNAL Son became a MAN. Conception is NOT mentioned in 1:14.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

The CONCEPTION of the MAN, Jesus Christ is clearly stated in Matthew 1:20-21; Luke 1:34-35 and this conception was BY The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father. John 1:14 tells us The ETERNAL Son became a MAN. Conception is NOT mentioned in 1:14.

Perhaps we should start with Matthew 1 rather than with Trinitarian concepts developed in the 3rd and 4th Centuries based on Greek philosophy and Platoism.

Matthew 1:1–17 (KJV): 1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; …. 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Matthew uses the word “begat” repetitively above. Then we come to the begettal of Jesus:
Matthew 1:18–21 (KJV): 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg: Greek begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

You emphasise “conception”, but you ignore the context of the repeated use of “begat” and the KJV margin which tells us that the Greek word translated “conceived” is the Greek word “begotten”. So when we come to John 1:14 and encounter the word “begotten” it is talking about the same process, the conception and birth of Jesus.
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

this conception was BY The Holy Spirit, NOT The Father.

John 1:14 states that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father and God the Father achieved this by means of His power, the Holy Spirit. Note the poetic parallel in Matthew's account:
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again johnny guitar,

Perhaps we should start with Matthew 1 rather than with Trinitarian concepts developed in the 3rd and 4th Centuries based on Greek philosophy and Platoism.

Matthew 1:1–17 (KJV): 1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; …. 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Matthew uses the word “begat” repetitively above. Then we come to the begettal of Jesus:
Matthew 1:18–21 (KJV): 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg: Greek begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

You emphasise “conception”, but you ignore the context of the repeated use of “begat” and the KJV margin which tells us that the Greek word translated “conceived” is the Greek word “begotten”. So when we come to John 1:14 and encounter the word “begotten” it is talking about the same process, the conception and birth of Jesus.
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


John 1:14 states that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father and God the Father achieved this by means of His power, the Holy Spirit. Note the poetic parallel in Matthew's account:
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Indeed, The Son of God is begotten of The Father.
Indeed, Jesus Christ The MAN was conceived(begotten)of The HOLY SPIRIT.
BYW The Holy Spirit is NOT the power of The Father.

 

[Yahchristian]

Jesus Christ The MAN was conceived(begotten)of The HOLY SPIRIT.

So according to your Trinitarian view...

The Holy Spirit is the father (lowercase f) of Jesus Christ the man.

Correct?

 

[johnny guitar]

So according to your Trinitarian view...

The Holy Spirit is the father (lowercase f) of Jesus Christ the man.

Correct?

False. Jesus The MAN has NO father.

 

[guest1]

That is the point on this thread: was he who we know as Jesus, "the Son of God" before he was born human? What does the Bible teach about that?

If we know that Jesus and Jehovah are two very different spiritual persons, then we will be closer to salvation:

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Being able to identify Jesus BEFORE he was born human may help us to correctly understand that Jehovah is "the only true God" as Jesus said.

The Son pre existed His birth and is eternal. He was sent from heaven to this earth.


John 3:13
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

John 3:31-32
31 "He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
John 5:36-40
"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.


John 8:23-24
You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

John 8:57-59
So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

 

[guest1]

That is not what the Bible teaches:

Pro. 30:4 Who has ascended to heaven that he may descend? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son, in case you know?

Thanks anyway for trying, Eternomade.

Bible teaches a lot of other things about Jesus before becoming a human and some of these things are known to most religious "Christians", although they do not mention them very clearly. For example, everyone knows that the angel of Exo. 23: 20-23 was pre-human Jesus.

Exo. 23:20 “I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and do all that I say, I will show hostility to your enemies and oppose those who oppose you. 23 For my angel will go ahead of you and will bring you to (...)

Obviously, prehuman "Jesus" was not the same as Jehovah.

More proof




John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.



John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"



John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known


John 3:13
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:31
31 He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

John 6:62-63
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

John 8:23-24
23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I Am from above; you are of this world, I Am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am He, you will die in your sins."

John 8:57-59
57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

John 17:1,5
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

[Lilel01]

More proof




John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.



John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"



John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known


John 3:13
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:31
31 He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

John 6:62-63
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

John 8:23-24
23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I Am from above; you are of this world, I Am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am He, you will die in your sins."

John 8:57-59
57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

John 17:1,5
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Thank you for sharing that list of biblical quotes that show that Jesus himself spoke of his pre-existence before he was born as a human.

In the questions that Jehovah asked Job out of a whirlwind, He mentioned about "the sons of God" who already existed in the heavens when Jehovah himself was preparing the earth to be inhabited.

Job 38:
4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

OBVIOUSLY these "sons of God" were not human, since human beings did not yet exist. These sons of God were living in heaven, and Job 1: 6 and 2:1 says that they meet before the throne of God in assemblies. They are spoken of in many visions of heaven that are recorded in Scripture. Moses began his blessings to the Israelites by speaking of those sons of God:

Deut. 33:2 He said:
“Jehovah—from Siʹnai he came,
And he shone upon them from Seʹir.
He shone forth in glory from the mountainous region of Paʹran,
And with him were holy myriads,
At his right hand his warriors.

Doesn't it seem logical to you that if Jesus pre-existed before he was born as a human, he was already one of those Sons of God in heaven before the earth was inhabited?

 

[guest1]

Thank you for sharing that list of biblical quotes that show that Jesus himself spoke of his pre-existence before he was born as a human.

In the questions that Jehovah asked Job out of a whirlwind, He mentioned about "the sons of God" who already existed in the heavens when Jehovah himself was preparing the earth to be inhabited.

Job 38:
4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

OBVIOUSLY these "sons of God" were not human, since human beings did not yet exist. These sons of God were living in heaven, and Job 1: 6 and 2:1 says that they meet before the throne of God in assemblies. Moses began his blessings to the Israelites by speaking of those sons of God:

Deut. 33:2 He said:
“Jehovah—from Siʹnai he came,
And he shone upon them from Seʹir.
He shone forth in glory from the mountainous region of Paʹran,
And with him were holy myriads,
At his right hand his warriors.

They are spoken of in many visions of heaven that are recorded in Scripture.

Doesn't it seem logical to you that if Jesus pre-existed before he was born as a human, he was already one of those Sons of God in heaven before the earth was inhabited?

No since scripture points to God as creator not angels and The Son is called the creator in numerous passages .

hope this helps !!!

 

[Lilel01]

Jesus is NEVER called "the Creator" in the Bible.

In my topic on that subject you will find more arguments about it, and I hope they will help you.

In my post #44 in that topic I said in part:

Many Bible versions translate the Greek preposition here: δι αυτου (John 1:3,10; Col. 1:16,17) incorrectly, so people understand from that incorrect translation that it was Jesus who created, but that preposition means something else in that phrase, which correctly translates "through him" and NOT "by him".

Notice the subtle difference? Trinitarian theologians are not going to tell you that, because it is convenient for their doctrine to be mistranslated so that you understand what they want it to say and not what it actually says.

Analyze the translations objectively, and reason from what you read, not what you want the "reading" to mean, because that is not being guided by the Scriptures, but by what your imagination (or someone else) tells you about the Scriptures.

 

[Fred]

I can think of several reasons why we should not give to Jesus Christ what only belongs to his Father and God, to Jehovah. These few reasons now come to my mind:

1) Because Jesus taught that true worshipers worship the Father ... not the Son: John 4:22-26;

6) Because no one in heaven regards Jesus as equal to God: Rev. 5:9,10.

The passage you cited in #6 affirms the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of worship (Revelation 5:9).

Invocation worship and prayer

What we see here from Paul is that he equates Jesus as the source of grace and peace with the Father. Paul clearly identifies Jesus as equal with the Father and expresses His Deity with these invocations in his epistles. Not only is this a prayer from Paul but an act of worship in Paul's...

forums.carm.org

 

[johnny guitar]

There is a clear expression in the NT that tells us Jesus was the Son of God before becoming a human:

John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Same here:

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

... and here:

Heb. 1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

'Isn't it wonderful what we can learn from the Scriptures when we analyze them without preconceptions?

He has spoken to us IN The Son.

 

[johnny guitar]

There are at least four recorded events that marked Jesus as God's special Son:

1) at the time of his conception in the womb of Mary;
2) at the time of his baptism;
3) at the moment when God shows to others that he has been approved by him as Son, at the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:5);
4) at the time of his resurrection (Rom. 1:4).

... but there is obviously one, the principal event, that marked Jesus as the Firstborn and Only Begotten Son of God in the most important sense:

5) a time in the remote past when Jesus was begotten as Jehovah's first living production.

The Son of God is eternal and was NEVER produced.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings johnny guitar,

He has spoken to us IN The Son.

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father has spoken to us by or in HIS Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, The Son of God.
Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son
Hebrews 1:1–2 (NASB95): 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son,

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fred]

Hmmmm? Several being "only"?
I must not understand English!

the MadJW...ask the JW's about that.

"Only Jehovah" refers to the Lord Jesus

The Watchtower: Only Jehovah is able to fathom our inner person—our motives, thoughts, and emotions.—Jeremiah 17:9, 10. (Safeguarding Our Christian Identity, February 15, 2005, page 19) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005125 Since the Lord Jesus knows what "only Jehovah" knows proves...

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