Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

civic

Well-known member
Since when has he ever done this? He has(IMO) 10-15 posts filed away somewhere on his desktop/tablet/phone/android that all he has to do is access it, pick which post, copy and paste it, and voila! He’s got a post posted right after you, or one of the others, so fast, there’s no way he’s ever considered what you posted. Plus, as quick as he posts it, there’s no way he’s had time to type it out that fast.
Unless he types 120 wpm with a total recall memory to boot 🥾 😆
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Since when has he ever done this? He has(IMO) 10-15 posts filed away somewhere on his desktop/tablet/phone/android that all he has to do is access it, pick which post, copy and paste it, and voila! He’s got a post posted right after you, or one of the others, so fast, there’s no way he’s ever considered what you posted. Plus, as quick as he posts it, there’s no way he’s had time to type it out that fast.

Yep... It's clear he doesn't put much thought or time into his posts.
That's why he depends on "cut-and-paste", and why he simply "cherry-picks" whatever sources he thinks he can twist to support his theology.

One day that resource is Greek lexicons, which he twists.
When Greek lexicons CLEARLY don't support his view, he goes INSTEAD to English dictionaries.
And when no lexicons support him, he searches for commentaries which support his view.

And as we all know, you can find commentaries which support ANY view you want, so they're hardly authoritative.

Has anyone EVER seen him actually do true "exegesis"?
Nope. He never quotes more than one or two verses, and then TELLS you what you're supposed to think they mean.

EISEGESIS.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Since when has he ever done this? He has(IMO) 10-15 posts filed away somewhere on his desktop/tablet/phone/android that all he has to do is access it, pick which post, copy and paste it, and voila! He’s got a post posted right after you, or one of the others, so fast, there’s no way he’s ever considered what you posted. Plus, as quick as he posts it, there’s no way he’s had time to type it out that fast.
You are really funny

10-15 posts ?

Do you also imagine I know what you are going to say ahead of time and have an answer picked out already
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
Example

Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

When something can't be taken LITERALLY... then it is often hyperbole.
I did not ask about Mat. 5:30 though. One verse using hyperbole does not mean the other is right?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Romans 1:1-8 (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

demonstrate where unbelief is spoken of
That was not the verse in question
 
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TomFL

Guest
Yep... It's clear he doesn't put much thought or time into his posts.
That's why he depends on "cut-and-paste", and why he simply "cherry-picks" whatever sources he thinks he can twist to support his theology.

One day that resource is Greek lexicons, which he twists.
When Greek lexicons CLEARLY don't support his view, he goes INSTEAD to English dictionaries.
And when no lexicons support him, he searches for commentaries which support his view.

And as we all know, you can find commentaries which support ANY view you want, so they're hardly authoritative.

Has anyone EVER seen him actually do true "exegesis"?
Nope. He never quotes more than one or two verses, and then TELLS you what you're supposed to think they mean.

EISEGESIS.

The fact you guys need to resort to - to the man type arguments shows you are scripturally busted

aside from that you appear to have some veracity issues as it was you who tried to twist BDAG to support you

And it was you who refused to address an argument or consider how the new testament uses words when you tried to find support in BDAG

Oh and lets not forget how you tried to define an english word with a greek lexicon and then left off the primary meaning and gloss

As for commentaries you were refuted by your own Calvinist peers so it is not a question of being able to find a commentary with a different view

BTW here is another for you

Even the Master (kai ton despotēn). Old word for absolute master, here of Christ as in Jude 1:4
Word Pictures in the New Testament.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Like I said, do your own work Tom.

I don’t take orders from you.
Go back and look, consider what I said and my reasoning, then we can continue.
This is what you wrote

Jesus is saying those who hear His words and do not believe, He does not judge. He doesn't have to, they will be condemned by their own consciences. Jesus is just saying He will not proceed against them as an adversary or as a condemning judge. During Jesus' earthly ministry he is practicing the office of Prophet and Priest, then finally Judge which is reserved for the last day.

The first thing you were asked was to discover the meaning of the word world in the verse

You did not do it

To forward my argument I asked various question throughout the thread

Why does Jesus not come to judge according to the text

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and highlighted what the text had to say

There is nothing in your reply which answered this

you completely ignored it


How you can claim to have answered my argument when you omitted what the text plainly states is incredible

I asked what does this say about the relation of the unbeliever and the world

Nothing in your reply addresses this

I asked who did Jesus come to save in the verse
(be more specific than the term world based on what was found out about those included in the term world)

again no response
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
More…


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#AdNauseam
 

civic

Well-known member
John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Did Jesus judge and condemn the Pharisees in Matthew 23? Yes or no

Since He is the Savior and the One who we must give an account at the Judgment seat of Christ , He is also the one who delivers the Wrath of the Lamb at His 2nd Coming in vengeance. Revelation 6 and Revelation 14. The terrifying Day of the Lord told by many OT prophets and Jesus tells us in Matthew 24. The Lord will Judge His people. Its a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Vengeance is Mine and I will repay says the Lord. Hebrews 10. Jesus told us the Father judges no one and has given all Judgment to the Son, John 5.

You have a contradiction .
 
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TomFL

Guest
More…


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#AdNauseam
Thats it run from the evidence


Carbon stated
Like I said, do your own work Tom.

I don’t take orders from you.
Go back and look, consider what I said and my reasoning, then we can continue.

Tom replies

Showing that in fact Carbon did not address my argument

This is what you wrote


Jesus is saying those who hear His words and do not believe, He does not judge. He doesn't have to, they will be condemned by their own consciences. Jesus is just saying He will not proceed against them as an adversary or as a condemning judge. During Jesus' earthly ministry he is practicing the office of Prophet and Priest, then finally Judge which is reserved for the last day.

The first thing you were asked was to discover the meaning of the word world in the verse

You did not do it

To forward my argument I asked various question throughout the thread

Why does Jesus not come to judge according to the text

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and highlighted what the text had to say

There is nothing in your reply which answered this

you completely ignored it

How you can claim to have answered my argument when you omitted what the text plainly states is incredible

I asked what does this say about the relation of the unbeliever and the world

Nothing in your reply addresses this

I asked who did Jesus come to save in the verse (be more specific than the term world based on what was found out about those included in the term world)

again no response
 
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TomFL

Guest
Did Jesus judge and condemn the Pharisees in Matthew 23? Yes or no

Since He is the Savior and the One who we must give an account at the Judgment seat of Christ , He is also the one who delivers the Wrath of the Lamb at His 2nd Coming in vengeance. Revelation 6 and Revelation 14. The terrifying Day of the Lord told by many OT prophets and Jesus tells us in Matthew 24. The Lord will Judge His people. Its a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Vengeance is Mine and I will repay says the Lord. Hebrews 10. Jesus told us the Father judges no one and has given all Judgment to the Son, John 5.

You have a contradiction .
First I did not write John

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

so your argument is with scripture

Second no Jesus did not become a man and come to earth to judge the pharisees

There is no verse in scripture which states that
 

civic

Well-known member
First I did not write John

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

so your argument is with scripture

Second no Jesus did not become a man and come to earth to judge the pharisees

There is no verse in scripture which states that
Ok just requoting the passage over again does in no way nullify Jesus as Judge and the fact He judged the Pharisees in Matthew 23 which you are doing the following:

1- Ignoring
2- Not reconciling with your verse you keep repeating
3- Contradicts your verse in John 12
4- You have a dilemma
5- Repeating it does not change the above

hope this helps !!!
 
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TomFL

Guest
Ok just requoting the passage over again does in no way nullify Jesus as Judge and the fact He judged the Pharisees in Matthew 23 which you are doing the following:

1- Ignoring
2- Not reconciling with your verse you keep repeating
3- Contradicts your verse in John 12
4- You have a dilemma
5- Repeating it does not change the above

hope this helps !!!

Sorry but you are mistaken

Jesus did not come to earth to judge the Pharisees

and the passage cited below is speaking of eternal judgment

John 12:47-48 (KJV)

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

and you are confounding that with temporal judgment

So rather you have

Ignored context

confounded eternal judgment with temporal judgment

imagined scripture contradicts scripture

invented a purpose for Christ's coming which is no where articulated in scripture

Cited a verse which no where speaks of Christ purpose in coming into the world as though it was

BTW both passages were just reconciled in noting the difference between eternal and temporal judgment
and noting it was not stated Christ came into the world to judge the pharisees


why not just believe what the verse states

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


Any man in context refers to any unbeliever

Christ has come to save not judge
 

civic

Well-known member
Sorry but you are mistaken

Jesus did not come to earth to judge the Pharisees

and the passage cited below is speaking of eternal judgment

John 12:47-48 (KJV)

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

and you are confounding that with temporal judgment

So rather you have

Ignored context

confounded eternal judgment with temporal judgment

imagined scripture contradicts scripture

invented a purpose for Christ's coming which is no where articulated in scripture

Cited a verse which no where speaks of Christ purpose in coming into the world as though it was

BTW both passages were just reconciled in noting the difference between eternal and temporal judgment
and noting it was not stated Christ came into the world to judge the pharisees


why not just believe what the verse states

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


Any man in context refers to any unbeliever

Christ has come to save not judge
Sorry you have not dealt with Jesus judgment of the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

Are you denying that Jesus condemned them ? yes or no

And ignoring the above doesn't make it go away, it makes you contradict your own position in John 12.

Repeating yourself doesn't change the fact Jesus not only JUDGED them but also CONDEMNDED the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

Is hell an eternal judgment/condemnation ? yes or no

I have shown you that your cistern is full of holes and cannot hold the water. Your doctrine is full of leaks on this topic with your assumptions which I have exposed which is why you are running away from Matthew 23.

conclusion: The pharisees were unbelievers and Jesus judged and condemned them. @TomFL cannot reconcile it which is why he is refusing to answer the question regarding Matthew 23. A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text. @TomFL is proof texting. That is EISEGESIS not proper hermeneutics which includes exegesis.

see here for a thread on the topic @TomFL


hope this helps !!!
 
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civic

Well-known member
And @TomFL if you want to play fair in that thread we can and do what all people in debates do.

1 person presents a question and a passage and both get a chance to respond and ask a question. So you get the opportunity with John 12 just as I get the opportunity with Matthew 23.

And how this works is the passage in question gets directly answered without diversion. So that includes me with John 12 and you with Matthew 23.

Agree ? yes or no

hope this helps !!!
 
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