Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

[TomFL]

Sorry you have not dealt with Jesus judgment of the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

Are you denying that Jesus condemned them ? yes or no

And ignoring the above doesn't make it go away, it makes you contradict your own position in John 12.

Repeating yourself doesn't change the fact Jesus not only JUDGED them but also CONDEMNDED the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

Is hell an eternal judgment/condemnation ? yes or no

I have shown you that your cistern is full of holes and cannot hold the water. Your doctrine is full of leaks on this topic with your assumptions which I have exposed which is why you are running away from Matthew 23.

conclusion: The pharisees were unbelievers and Jesus judged and condemned them. @TomFL cannot reconcile it which is why he is refusing to answer the question regarding Matthew 23. A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text. @TomFL is proof texting. That is EISEGESIS not proper hermeneutics which includes exegesis.

see here for a thread on the topic @TomFL

For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son

@TomFL denies Jesus Judged men on this earth but below we see that is FALSE as our Lord not only said He is the One and Only Judge but He did judge men while walking this earth and condemned the Pharisees below in Matthew 23. So @TomFL you must deal with these passages which contradict your pet...

forums.carm.org

hope this helps !!!

You were plainly told Jesus judgment upon Jerusalem was temporal

Are you going to claim the pharisees had no opportunity for repentance and were assigned to hell irremediably

where is your evidence for that ?

Certainly Jesus was warning them of their condition but their eternal destiny was not established

In any case all you are doing is trying to cause scripture to contradict scripture

You are not addressing

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jesus in John 12:47 is speaking of eternal judgment on the last day

You are mixing oranges and apples

you speak of context but you have ignored the different contexts

btw your comment is false I refused to answer nothing

I addressed Mat 23 and the temporal destruction of Jerusalem

and I addressed the condition of the pharisees

So you have not I have not shown my cistern is full of holes and cannot hold the water.

or that my doctrine is full of leaks on this topic

And I have not run from Mat 23 but you have not touched John 12:47

and the only assumptrion here is your assumption Jesus in matthew somehow contradicts what he stated in John 12:47

 

[civic]

You were plainly told Jesus judgment upon Jerusalem was temporal

Are you going to claim the pharisees had no opportunity for repentance and were assigned to hell irremediably

where is your evidence for that ?

Certainly Jesus was warning them of their condition but their eternal destiny was not established

In any case all you are doing is trying to cause scripture to contradict scripture

You are not addressing

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jesus in John 12:47 is speaking of eternal judgment on the last day

You are mixing oranges and apples

you speak of context but you have ignored the different contexts

btw your comment is false I refused to answer nothing

I addressed Mat 23 and the temporal destruction of Jerusalem

and I addressed the condition of the pharisees

So you have not I have not shown my cistern is full of holes and cannot hold the water.

or that my doctrine is full of leaks on this topic

And I have not run from Mat 23 but you have not touched John 12:47

and the only assumptrion here is your assumption Jesus in matthew somehow contradicts what he stated in John 12:47

You were plainly told by Jesus the following in Matthew 23

Matt 23:33
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


And just so we are clear what Jesus means by hell- its everlasting/eternal, never ending judgment/condemnation with pain and suffering.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'


Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment,

 

[civic]

Guess it hurts seeing what you are unable to deal with

You were plainly told by Jesus the following in Matthew 23. I guess you are unable to deal with Jesus words below.

Matt 23:33
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


And just so we are clear what Jesus means by hell- its everlasting/eternal, never ending judgment/condemnation with pain and suffering.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'


Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment,

 

[civic]

This is what you wrote



The first thing you were asked was to discover the meaning of the word world in the verse

You did not do it

To forward my argument I asked various question throughout the thread

Why does Jesus not come to judge according to the text

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and highlighted what the text had to say

There is nothing in your reply which answered this

you completely ignored it

How you can claim to have answered my argument when you omitted what the text plainly states is incredible

I asked what does this say about the relation of the unbeliever and the world

Nothing in your reply addresses this

I asked who did Jesus come to save in the verse (be more specific than the term world based on what was found out about those included in the term world)

again no response

You were plainly told by Jesus the following in Matthew 23

Matt 23:33
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


And just so we are clear what Jesus means by hell- its everlasting/eternal, never ending judgment/condemnation with pain and suffering.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'


Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment,

AGAIN NO RESPONSE FROM YOU !

 

[Carbon]

You were plainly told by Jesus the following in Matthew 23

Matt 23:33
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


And just so we are clear what Jesus means by hell- its everlasting/eternal, never ending judgment/condemnation with pain and suffering.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'


Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment,

Show where you answered his specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text).

Are you not getting it civic? He wants answers, and he wants them now!

 

[TomFL]

And @TomFL if you want to play fair in that thread we can and do what all people in debates do.

1 person presents a question and a passage and both get a chance to respond and ask a question. So you get the opportunity with John 12 just as I get the opportunity with Matthew 23.

And how this works is the passage in question gets directly answered without diversion. So that includes me with John 12 and you with Matthew 23.

Agree ? yes or no

hope this helps !!!

Agreed so seeing as you asked about Matthew 23 and I responded noting there is no evidence the pharisees could not repent and be saved

and that destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was temporal

I also addressed your Comment on John 9:39

when are you going to address John 12:47 ?

 

[Carbon]

Agreed so seeing as you asked about Matthew 23 and I responded noting there is no evidence the pharisees could not repent and be saved

and that destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was temporal

I also addressed your Comment on John 9:39

when are you going to address John 12:47 ?

That’s right! You tell him Tom!
And once he thinks he has the answers, you change the questions!

 

[TomFL]

You were plainly told by Jesus the following in Matthew 23

Matt 23:33
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


And just so we are clear what Jesus means by hell- its everlasting/eternal, never ending judgment/condemnation with pain and suffering.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'


Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment,

AGAIN NO RESPONSE FROM YOU !

That is funny

You just posted today/overnight and i was busy

This did not go on for days and days as did the post on John 12:47 and the arguments based upon it and still is not addressed

In any case a question how can you escape being condemned to hell is not evidence their eternal destiny was established

Nor that they had no opportunity for repentance

You are simply assuming what you need to prove

BTW Paul was a Pharisee

Many of the jews saved throughout the book of Acts in all likelyhood were pharisees

So their eternal destiny was not fixed

Why you quote Matthew 25 is a mystery

it speaking of the future judgement and noting that the goats will go eternal punishment

It was not assigning anyone in particular to that destiny in 30 A.D.

 

[TomFL]

That’s right! You tell him Tom!
And once he thinks he has the answers, you change the questions!

All i need is someone to actually address my argument based on John 12:47

as i showed you did not do it

 

[Carbon]

All i need is someone to actually address my argument based on John 12:47

as i showed you did not do it

What, in particular, would you like to know about it, besides what I already addressed?
Or, did you change the questions?

 

[civic]

That is funny

You just posted today/overnight and i was busy

This did not go on for days and days as did the post on John 12:47 and the arguments based upon it and still is not addressed

In any case a question how can you escape being condemned to hell is not evidence their eternal destiny was established

Nor that they had no opportunity for repentance

You are simply assuming what you need to prove

BTW Paul was a Pharisee

Many of the jews saved throughout the book of Acts in all likelyhood were pharisees

So their eternal destiny was not fixed

Why you quote Matthew 25 is a mystery

it speaking of the future judgement and noting that the goats will go eternal punishment

It was not assigning anyone in particular to that destiny in 30 A.D.

Jesus is clearly condemning them to hell and that they made every disciple of their twice the sons of hell as they were. Jesus is speaking to them in the present. Present Indicative active to be precise.

Matt 23:15
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

 

[TomFL]

What, in particular, would you like to know about it, besides what I already addressed?
Or, did you change the questions?

Do your own work

There is a post in the thread the difficulty in getting Arminians to understand the gospel

It highlights your failures

 

[Carbon]

What, in particular, would you like to know about it, besides what I already addressed?
Or, did you change the questions?

Which was, in short. Jesus did not come as judge, the Father judges them, Jesus came to save.
I don’t know why you can’t see this.

Perhaps you just don’t want to see it

 

[civic]

Which was, in short. Jesus did not come as judge, the Father judges them, Jesus came to save.
I don’t know why you can’t see this.

Perhaps you just don’t want to see it

Plus Jesus said the Father has given all Judgment to the Son and the Father judges no one. Another contradiction with his theology.

John 5:22
For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son

 

[Carbon]

Do your own work

There is a post in the thread the difficulty in getting Arminians to understand the gospel

It highlights your failures

Oh comeTom, you can’t do my work for me?

my failures according to you. Which means absolutely nothing

 

[Carbon]

Plus Jesus said the Father has given all Judgment to the Son and the Father judges no one. Another contradiction with his theology.

John 5:22
For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son

Yea, it’s obvious his theology is all over the place. But he keeps hammering it.

 

[Carbon]

Plus Jesus said the Father has given all Judgment to the Son and the Father judges no one. Another contradiction with his theology.

John 5:22
For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son

He just wants everyone to accept his false gospel that Jesus came to save everyone on planet earth.

 

[TomFL]

Jesus is clearly condemning them to hell and that they made every disciple of their twice the sons of hell as they were. Jesus is speaking to them in the present. Present Indicative active to be precise.

Matt 23:15
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Sorry but once again a question is not assignment of eternal destiny

Certainly it is a warning

And Christ was speaking of their current condition

But you are ignoring the fact pharisees got saved

Paul was one

There were others in the book of acts (you cannot assume all were saducees)

We read of instances of 3000 and 5000 being saved at once

Acts 2 and Acts 4

when are you going to address John 12:47

as you affirmed was fair ?

and the next verse tells us

Romans 11:23 (KJV)
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

[civic]

He just wants everyone to accept his false gospel that Jesus came to save everyone on planet earth.

Anyone can see that did not happen and cannot happen since people end up in hell. So if He atoned for their sins then Jesus failed. its why limited atonement is the only solution. Its the only option that does not make God out to be incapable of saving those He intended to save.

 

[Carbon]

He just wants everyone to accept his false gospel that Jesus came to save everyone on planet earth.

But IMO, it’s quite obvious the Jesus didn’t come as Judge but as prophet and priest. But on the last day will be judgement as v48 brings out.

But some can’t see the simple and reason it out, their false gospel is much more important then the truth.