Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

civic

Well-known member
This Pharisee seems to be saved.


But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!” Acts 23

4 “So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem; 5 since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion. 6 And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; 7 the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day. And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews. 8 Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead? Act 26

If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

And a Pharisee blameless according to the Law too! Wow, that's not gonna fit the favorite doctrines of men is it?
oh no the uni-heterodox is back. no time for side tracking us as usual. time to corral them here

 
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TomFL

Guest
Why do you keep RIPPING this OUT OF CONTEXT?:


2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The context here is LIMITED to the "beloved", who are the "us-ward".
You can't simply IGNORE these cues.
What makes you think believers are in danger of perishing and needing to come to repentance

2 Peter 3:2-7 (KJV)
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

the ungodly however are

The fact believers are not is a clue you cannot ignore
 
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TomFL

Guest
So the next verse after Matt 23:15 is, Romans 11:23?
Rather irrelevant

One verse cannot contradict another

.........................................

Sorry but once again a question is not assignment of eternal destiny

Certainly it is a warning

And Christ was speaking of their current condition

But you are ignoring the fact pharisees got saved

Paul was one

There were others in the book of acts (you cannot assume all were saducees)

We read of instances of 3000 and 5000 being saved at once

Acts 2 and Acts 4

when are you going to address John 12:47

as you affirmed was fair ?

and the next verse tells us

Romans 11:23 (KJV)
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Sorry but believers are not in danger of perishing or needing to come into repentance

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You really don’t understand scripture, do you.
Here, let me repeat, pay close attention Tom. I’m really trying to help you.

Scripture is written to believers. Can you understand that? Questions? Questions are welcome.

Now, read 2Peter ch 3 from the beginning. Ask yourself, what were the believers experiencing? I’m not going to tell you, you must do the work for yourself.

Then, ask yourself, why would Peter write what he wrote in verse 9?

it’s really not that difficult to see Tom.
let me know what you come up with.

Hint.
God is long suffering towards His elect, not willany should perish.
I’ll leave you to put this together.

Keep in mind the elect are not born saved at birth, they must come to repentance
 
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TomFL

Guest
Jesus used the present active indicative verb meaning at the present time Jesus was telling them they were condemned by Him to hell.

hope this helps !!!
The present tense does not help you

Current condition need not be the final one

Do you have any evidence no pharisee ever got saved

because Paul holds open salvation

Romans 11:23 (KJV)
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

to those cut off

You have posted 3 arguments all of which I have answered

when are you going to do what you stated was fair and address John 12:47 and my argument

You cannot contradict it by appealing to Matthew 23
 

civic

Well-known member
The present tense does not help you

Current condition need not be the final one

Do you have any evidence no pharisee ever got saved

because Paul holds open salvation

Romans 11:23 (KJV)
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

to those cut off

You have posted 3 arguments all of which I have answered

when are you going to do what you stated was fair and address John 12:47 and my argument

You cannot contradict it by appealing to Matthew 23
hell is final no ifs ands or buts about it.
 
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TomFL

Guest
You really don’t understand scripture, do you.
Here, let me repeat, pay close attention Tom. I’m really trying to help you.

Scripture is written to believers. Can you understand that? Questions? Questions are welcome.
Scripture being written to believers does not mean it canot address unbelievers

This concerns unbelievers

2 Peter 3:2-7 (KJV)
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

they are in danger of perishing and in need of repentance




Now, read 2Peter ch 3 from the beginning. Ask yourself, what were the believers experiencing? I’m not going to tell you, you must do the work for yourself.

Then, ask yourself, why would Peter write what he wrote in verse 9?

it’s really not that difficult to see Tom.
let me know what you come up with.

Hint.
God is long suffering towards His elect, not willany should perish.
I’ll leave you to put this together.

Keep in mind the elect are not born saved at birth, they must come to repentance

Paul is writing to living men

who were believers

they are not in danger of perishing or in need of repentance

but they are men and mankind is in danger of perishing if they do not repent

9. But the Lord is not slack, or, delays not. He checks extreme and unreasonable haste by another reason, that is, that the Lord defers his coming that he might invite all mankind to repentance.
Calvin's Commentaries.

As some men count slackness. It is probable that the apostle here had his eye on some professing Christians who had become disheartened and impatient, and who, from the delay in regard to the coming of the Lord Jesus, and from the representations of those who denied the truth of the Christian religion, arguing from that delay that it was false, began to fear that his promised coming would indeed never occur. To such he says that it should not be inferred from his delay that he would not return, but that the delay should be regarded as an evidence of his desire that men should have space for repentance, and an opportunity to secure their salvation. 2 Peter 3:15.

But is longsuffering to us-ward. Toward us. The delay should be regarded as a proof of his forbearance, and of his desire that men should be saved. Every sinner should consider the fact that he is not cut down in his sins, not as a proof that God will not punish the wicked, but as a demonstration that he is now forbearing, and is willing that he should have an ample opportunity to obtain eternal life.
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

any—not desiring that any, yea, even that the scoffers, should perish, which would be the result if He did not give space for repentance.


A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

All Calvinist
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Scripture being written to believers does not mean it canot address unbelievers

This concerns unbelievers

2 Peter 3:2-7 (KJV)
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

they are in danger of perishing and in need of repentance






Paul is writing to living men

who were believers

they are not in danger of perishing or in need of repentance

but they are men and mankind is in danger of perishing if they do not repent

9. But the Lord is not slack, or, delays not. He checks extreme and unreasonable haste by another reason, that is, that the Lord defers his coming that he might invite all mankind to repentance.
Calvin's Commentaries.

As some men count slackness. It is probable that the apostle here had his eye on some professing Christians who had become disheartened and impatient, and who, from the delay in regard to the coming of the Lord Jesus, and from the representations of those who denied the truth of the Christian religion, arguing from that delay that it was false, began to fear that his promised coming would indeed never occur. To such he says that it should not be inferred from his delay that he would not return, but that the delay should be regarded as an evidence of his desire that men should have space for repentance, and an opportunity to secure their salvation. 2 Peter 3:15.

But is longsuffering to us-ward. Toward us. The delay should be regarded as a proof of his forbearance, and of his desire that men should be saved. Every sinner should consider the fact that he is not cut down in his sins, not as a proof that God will not punish the wicked, but as a demonstration that he is now forbearing, and is willing that he should have an ample opportunity to obtain eternal life.
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

any—not desiring that any, yea, even that the scoffers, should perish, which would be the result if He did not give space for repentance.


A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

All Calvinist
Your still not getting it. It’s important you understand what your reading.

Now, read it all over again. Let’s work on this together, I’m trying to help.
As you read through, ask questions. Start with just one at a time, we can work through it.

by the way you just posted everything with your take on it, all together, shows me your not into it to learn, do slow down, there is no need to rush.

you have some good points which should be questions, and other parts are just plain nonsense.

So, slow down Tom. Your getting to far ahead of yourself.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
9. But the Lord is not slack, or, delays not. He checks extreme and unreasonable haste by another reason, that is, that the Lord defers his coming that he might invite all mankind to repentance.
Calvin's Commentaries.

I doubt that Calvin understood "all mankind" in the way you do.

But is longsuffering to us-ward. Toward us. The delay should be regarded as a proof of his forbearance, and of his desire that men should be saved. Every sinner should consider the fact that he is not cut down in his sins, not as a proof that God will not punish the wicked, but as a demonstration that he is now forbearing, and is willing that he should have an ample opportunity to obtain eternal life.
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

It says that "every sinner should consider the fact that he is not cut down in his sins".
So this is referring ONLY to saved sinners.

any—not desiring that any, yea, even that the scoffers, should perish, which would be the result if He did not give space for repentance.

A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

I've never heard of this commentary.
But then again, I've already pointed out that you can find commentaries to defend ANY point of view. And that's all you're doing, is cherry-picking commentaries which you think support your view.
 

civic

Well-known member
I doubt that Calvin understood "all mankind" in the way you do.



It says that "every sinner should consider the fact that he is not cut down in his sins".
So this is referring ONLY to saved sinners.



I've never heard of this commentary.
But then again, I've already pointed out that you can find commentaries to defend ANY point of view. And that's all you're doing, is cherry-picking commentaries which you think support your view.
Agreed anyone can cherry pick sources to support an isolated verse.

Unitarians do it all the time using Trinitarian Theologians/ Sources as a hostile witness. That doesn't negate the truth concerning the Trinity one bit. Tom doesn't seem to realize this though I'm afraid since he continues to make the same mistake they do all the time.

He doesn't see his argument if a fallacious one with his appealing to authority.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
hell is final no ifs ands or buts about it.

See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of life, and is set on fire by Hell. 7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh. 13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.


"Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through the same example of disobedience."

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries..... The Lord will judge His people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God."
 

civic

Well-known member
See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of life, and is set on fire by Hell. 7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh. 13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.
so you don't believe in eternal torment either ? yes or no
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Note that our atoning sacrifice is not an event in time (as many mistakenly presume) but is the person himself.

He is the place where anyone in the world can be cleansed of their sins, all those who put trust in him by choosing to die together with him. And having died together with him, then raised to a new life by God, resurrection life, that is, saved by God Himself.
Can a false jesus make atonement for a persons sins ?

Do you believe that the Trinitarian Jesus can save a person from sin ?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Can a false jesus make atonement for a persons sins ?

NO.

Do you believe that the Trinitarian Jesus can save a person from sin ?

NO. The "Trinitarian Jesus" is an invention of men, a false Jesus that will do nothing for you.

Jesus was not a Trinitarian. His God was one single person, the God and Father of the Lord. His God was not a Trinity.

And there is only one God to refer TO.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
NO.



NO. The "Trinitarian Jesus" is an invention of men, a false Jesus that will do nothing for you.

Jesus was not a Trinitarian. His God was one single person, the God and Father of the Lord. His God was not a Trinity.

And there is only one God to refer TO.
So your jesus who was not God and is not now a man can save you but the biblical Jesus who is the Son of God and the son of man cannot save me. It is so hard to figure out how the religious people reading the same Bible can be so far away from the real Jesus like you @Our Lord's God .
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
So your jesus who was not God

Correct.

and is not now a man

Incorrect. Please get your facts straight.

can save you but the biblical Jesus who is the Son of God

....as are all the begotten sons of God, Jesus being the firstborn of many brothers.

and the son of man cannot save me. It is so hard to figure out how the religious people reading the same Bible can be so far away from the real Jesus like you @Our Lord's God .

The genuine Jesus is not your doctrine about Jesus......... or anyone else's.
 
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TomFL

Guest
TomFL said:
9. But the Lord is not slack, or, delays not. He checks extreme and unreasonable haste by another reason, that is, that the Lord defers his coming that he might invite all mankind to repentance.
Calvin's Commentaries.
Theo replied
I doubt that Calvin understood "all mankind" in the way you do.

Oh so you think your opinion rather than Calvins words should interpret Calvins meaning

Do you really think that is a serious argument

Especially as a numbver of Calvin quotes produced spoke of an unlimited atonemewnt


TomFL said:
But is longsuffering to us-ward. Toward us. The delay should be regarded as a proof of his forbearance, and of his desire that men should be saved. Every sinner should consider the fact that he is not cut down in his sins, not as a proof that God will not punish the wicked, but as a demonstration that he is now forbearing, and is willing that he should have an ample opportunity to obtain eternal life.
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

It says that "every sinner should consider the fact that he is not cut down in his sins".
So this is referring ONLY to saved sinners.

Sorry no not even close

Every sinner should be glad he is not cut down and that God is willing that he should have ample opportunity to Obtain eternal life

That is not those who already have eternal life




TomFL said:
any—not desiring that any, yea, even that the scoffers, should perish, which would be the result if He did not give space for repentance.

A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

I've never heard of this commentary.
But then again, I've already pointed out that you can find commentaries to defend ANY point of view. And that's all you're doing, is cherry-picking commentaries which you think support your view.

You never heard of JFB ?

Those are the authors and it is a well known Calvinist resource

You have spoken positively of it in the past

Three famous Calvinist sources not just any sources but well known respected Calvinist sources plainly disagree with you

here is a fourth

Some will perish (verse 7), but that is not God’s desire. Any (τινας [tinas]). Rather than “some” (τινες [tines]) above. Accusative with the infinitive ἀπολεσθαι [apolesthai] (second aorist middle of ἀπολλυμι [apollumi]. God wishes “all” (παντας [pantas]) to come (χωρησαι [chōrēsai] first aorist active infinitive of χωρεω [chōreō], old verb, to make room). See Acts 17:30; Rom. 11:32; 1 Tim. 2:4; Heb. 2:9 for God’s provision of grace for all who will repent.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 2 Pe 3:9.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Agreed anyone can cherry pick sources to support an isolated verse.

Unitarians do it all the time using Trinitarian Theologians/ Sources as a hostile witness. That doesn't negate the truth concerning the Trinity one bit. Tom doesn't seem to realize this though I'm afraid since he continues to make the same mistake they do all the time.

He doesn't see his argument if a fallacious one with his appealing to authority.
Cherry Pick ?

That is every Calvinist general commentary I have in Logos, Accordance and Wordsearch

four and all four disagree with Theo's interpretation

It was not hard to find that "cherry"

and it is rather plain believers are not in danger of perishing or in need of repentance mankind apart from believers are however
 

civic

Well-known member
Cherry Pick ?

That is every Calvinist general commentary I have in Logos, Accordance and Wordsearch

four and all four disagree with Theo's interpretation

It was not hard to find that "cherry"

and it is rather plain believers are not in danger of perishing or in need of repentance mankind apart from believers are however
My point is quoting any theologian on anything does not make what they say correct. I'm sure you would agree since the same theologians you are quoting would also be a hostile witness against you on another verse.

hope this helps !!!
 
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