Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Look at this verse…

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[1 John 2:15]

If you love everybody w/o exception, then the love of the Father is not in you? 😬🤔🤨
I was talking about 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29. Thank you
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I don't want to offend you. God knows that I don't. Please don't take this the wrong way.

You just made an argument solely based upon man made classifications. These line you've drawn above are not clearly and explicitly define in this way in the Scriptures. One of the hardest thing I find myself doing anymore is getting people to stop arguing another man's classification and are theology from the Scriptures alone. You will see me appeal to classification such as this in any arguments I make for a proper theology. I could care less where and how another man draws lines of segmentation in the their theology. I want to see those "lines" in the Scriptures.
No problem. I wore out by the afternoon yesterday, but today is a new day. Regarding Scripture for this, I think it's a Romans 5 thing. I often have to tell people that this is the Theology Board; not the Verbatim Verse Board. It's okay for me to argue for Covenant Theology here...
 

civic

Well-known member
It will probably get to be a Category four storm after a while. I plan to mainly do drive-by Posting, instead of arguing...
It shouldn't be that way since 2 renown Theologians who are Calvinists were quoted in the OP. We can't all agree on everything and like I say all of the time:

In essentials unity, in non essentials liberty and in all things charity.

If we practice these things maybe we would get more participants on this forum and they would feel welcomed. (heterodox excluded ) :ROFLMAO:

hope this helps !!!
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member

Calvin's Commentary on the Bible

29. The next day. There can be no doubt that John had already spoken about the manifestation of the Messiah; but when Christ began to appear, he wished that his announcement of him should quickly become known, and the time was now at hand when Christ would put an end to John’s ministry, as, when the sun is risen, the dawn suddenly disappears. After having testified to the priests who were sent to him, that he from whom they ought to seek the truth and power of baptism was already present, and was conversing in the midst of the people, the next day he pointed him out to the view of all. For these two acts, following each other in close succession, must have powerfully affected their minds. This too is the reason why Christ appeared in the presence of John.


Behold the Lamb of God. The principal office of Christ is briefly but clearly stated; that he takes away the sins of the world by the sacrifice of his death, and reconciles men to God. There are other favors, indeed, which Christ bestows upon us, but this is the chief favor, and the rest depend on it; that, by appeasing the wrath of God, he makes us to be reckoned holy and righteous. For from this source flow all the streams of blessings, that, by not imputing our sins, he receives us into favor. Accordingly, John, in order to conduct us to Christ, commences with the gratuitous forgiveness of sins which we obtain through him.

By the word Lamb he alludes to the ancient sacrifices of the Law. He had to do with Jews who, having been accustomed to sacrifices, could not be instructed about atonement for sins in any other way than by holding out to them a sacrifice. As there were various kinds of them, he makes one, by a figure of speech, to stand for the whole; and it is probable that John alluded to the paschal lamb. It must be observed, in general, that John employed this mode of expression, which was better adapted to instruct the Jews, and possessed greater force; as in our own day, in consequence of baptism being generally practiced, we understand better what is meant by obtaining forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ, when we are told that we are washed and cleansed by it from our pollutions. At the same time, as the Jews commonly held superstitious notions about sacrifices, he corrects this fault in passing, by reminding them of the object to which all the sacrifices were directed. It was a very wicked abuse of the institution of sacrifice, that they had their confidence fixed on the outward signs; and therefore John, holding out Christ, testifies that he is the Lamb of God; by which he means that all the sacrifices, which the Jews were accustomed to offer under the Law, had no power whatever to atone for sins, but that they were only figures, the truth of which was manifested in Christ himself.



Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.

Besides, he lays down but one method of taking away sins We know that from the beginning of the world, when their own consciences held them convinced, men labored anxiously to procure forgiveness. Hence the vast number of propitiatory offerings, by which they falsely imagined that they appeased God. I own, indeed, that all the spurious rites of a propitiatory nature drew their existence from a holy origin, which was, that God had appointed the sacrifices which directed men to Christ; but yet every man contrived for himself his own method of appeasing God. But John leads us back to Christ alone, and informs us that there is no other way in which God is reconciled to us than through his agency, because he alone takes away sin. He therefore leaves no other refuge for sinners than to flee to Christ; by which he overturns all satisfactions, and purifications, and redemptions, that are invented by men; as, indeed, they are nothing else than base inventions framed by the subtlety of the devil.

The verb αἴρειν ( to take away) may be explained in two ways; either that Christ took upon himself the load which weighed us down, as it is said that he carried our sins on the tree, (1 Peter 2:24 (NAS)

24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: 700; cursor: pointer;">1 Peter 2:24;) and Isaiah says that



the chastisement of our peace was laid on him, (Isaiah 53:5 (NAS)

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: 700; cursor: pointer;">Isaiah 53:5;)


or that he blots out sins. But as the latter statement depends on the former, I gladly embrace both; namely, that Christ, by bearing our sins, takes them away. Although, therefore, sin continually dwells in us, yet there is none in the judgment of God, because when it has been annulled by the grace of Christ, it is not imputed to us. Nor do I dislike the remark of Chrysostom, that the verb in the present tense — ὁ αἴρων, who taketh away, denotes a continued act; for the satisfaction which Christ once made is always in full vigor. But he does not merely teach us that Christ takes away sin, but points out also the method, namely, that he hath reconciled the Father to us by means of his death; for this is what he means by the word Lamb. Let us therefore learn that we become reconciled to God by the grace of Christ, if we go straight to his death, and when we believe that he who was nailed to the cross is the only propitiatory sacrifice, by which all our guilt is removed.


=============================


I admit it’s a rather deep read, but I don’t think John Calvin is expressing a universal application of the atonement in John 1:29. Read his commentary of Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4.


Here is his commentary on 1 John 2:2…

Calvin's Commentary on the Bible

2 And not for ours only He added this for the sake of amplifying, in order that the faithful might be assured that the expiation made by Christ, extends to all who by faith embrace the gospel.

Here a question may be raised, how have the sins of the whole world been expiated? I pass by the dotages of the fanatics, who under this pretense extend salvation to all the reprobate, and therefore to Satan himself. Such a monstrous thing deserves no refutation. They who seek to avoid this absurdity, have said that Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect. This solution has commonly prevailed in the schools. Though then I allow that what has been said is true, yet I deny that it is suitable to this passage; for the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world. For then is really made evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world.


In no way, shape, form, or fashion, is Calvin positing a universal application of John 1:29 when we know his writings concerning election and predestination.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It shouldn't be that way since 2 renown Theologians who are Calvinists were quoted in the OP. We can't all agree on everything and like I say all of the time:

In essentials unity, in non essentials liberty and in all things charity.

If we practice these things maybe we would get more participants on this forum and they would feel welcomed. (heterodox excluded ) :ROFLMAO:

hope this helps !!!
Obviously Calvin believed in Limited Atonement, and his quotes for that can pile up higher...
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
I was talking about 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29. Thank you
I was showing you the usage of the word ‘world’ in 1 John 2:15. World does not mean “all whoever lived”, well, I think one verse, John 1:10 might teach that, but no other place that I know of can ‘world’ be used all the human race en masse.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
I was talking about 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29. Thank you
Both those vss have the word ’world’ in it and you believe it means ‘everyone’. Try inserting ‘everyone’ in this verse…

Again…

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[1 John 2:15] If you believe(if that’s what you truly believe) world means ‘everyone’, then if you love ‘everyone’ then God’s love is not in you. I’m not saying this is the case with you, but that’s where this leads you to. If ‘world’ means ‘everyone’ in John 1:29 and 1 John 2:2, then it also means ‘everyone’ in 1 John 2:15. You cannot escape this.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Look at this verse…

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[1 John 2:15]

If you love everybody w/o exception, then the love of the Father is not in you? 😬🤔🤨
No

World carries a different meaning here

and refers not to the people of the world


By the world understand everything connected with the present life, apart from the kingdom of God and the hope of eternal life. So he includes in it corruptions of every kind, and the abyss of all evils. In the world are pleasures, delights, and all those allurements by which man is captivated, so as to withdraw himself from God.
Calvin's Commentaries.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
No

World carries a different meaning here

and refers not to the people of the world


By the world understand everything connected with the present life, apart from the kingdom of God and the hope of eternal life. So he includes in it corruptions of every kind, and the abyss of all evils. In the world are pleasures, delights, and all those allurements by which man is captivated, so as to withdraw himself from God.
Calvin's Commentaries.
And thank you! You just proved my point! 👍👍👍
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I was showing you the usage of the word ‘world’ in 1 John 2:15. World does not mean “all whoever lived”, well, I think one verse, John 1:10 might teach that, but no other place that I know of can ‘world’ be used all the human race en masse.
Both scripture and lexicons disagree with you

3. the world as the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.



William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.



.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
And thank you! You just proved my point! 👍👍👍
Then you are arguing a point no one disagrees with

No one believes world always refers to people

On the other hand you have done nothing at all to prove world

cannot refer to all the people of the world as scripture and lexicon show
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him.”[John 12:19]

So, the world as the sum total of all beings went after Christ?

Keep digging that hole you’re in, I’ll give you a bigger shovel.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him.”[John 12:19]

So, the world as the sum total of all beings went after Christ?

Keep digging that hole you’re in, I’ll give you a bigger shovel.

You're something else.......

That statement came from an ungodly Pharisee that were prone to exaggeration. In fact, that is exactly what it is... .HYPERBOLE.....

You're taking a hyperbolic statement and apply it in like manner to what God said......

Now that is dragging God down to your level.....
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thank you
As I read your Thread, I started thinking about Abrogation. Certainly there are more Comments from Calvin and Barnes about Limited Atonement; but do they Abrogate the Comments you noted? Maybe; but maybe not. One thing I've learned from CARM is that it appears a lot of Abrogation seems to occur; especially when Compatibalism is denied. Did Barnes and Calvin mean what they said in your OP, and did they mean what they say about Limited Atonement? Can they mean both?

That's just meant to be food for thought...
 

civic

Well-known member
As I read your Thread, I started thinking about Abrogation. Certainly there are more Comments from Calvin and Barnes about Limited Atonement; but do they Abrogate the Comments you noted? Maybe; but maybe not. One thing I've learned from CARM is that it appears a lot of Abrogation seems to occur; especially when Compatibalism is denied. Did Barnes and Calvin mean what they said in your OP, and did they mean what they say about Limited Atonement? Can they mean both?

That's just meant to be food for thought...
I think they were being honest with the text and not allowing their own dogma to interfere with exegesis.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him.”[John 12:19]

So, the world as the sum total of all beings went after Christ?

Keep digging that hole you’re in, I’ll give you a bigger shovel.
Try a soteriological significant verse

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and then try to tell me world does not include any unbeliever
 
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