Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Well, let's see...
I'm Canadian.
I started learning French from Grade 3.
In Ontario, high school (at the time) went to Grade 13.

I took French all the way to Grade 12, and only dropped Grade 13 because the teacher was a jerk.

Congrats. Canadian French is much different than 15 century European French. I am skeptical that you could translate it even given your extensive background.


Wrong again.
I didn't "dismiss" it, I simply recognized it as a secondary source.
As a scholar, I prefer working with primary sources.

You're not working with a primary French source for Calvin.

Thank you for the personal attack.
You will have to answer to God for that.

Yeah. Everything is a personal attack unless you do it yourself.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

I'm tempted to put forth the effort to see if what you quoted actually originated in French or not......

Either way, You don't use an English translation of the Bible as your primary source. You prefer the ancient texts. Don't try to wiggle out on this....
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Would you allow for Calvin to hold both as Compatible?
How so? How are they compatible? If expiation and propitiation are for the whole world, covering everybody w/o exception, then 1) ppl’s guilt have been taken away and 2) their sin debt has been paid in full. Then why are ppl going to stand before Him condemned in their sins, when their guilt has been taken away and also paid in full?

I do not, for one second, believe Calvin was expressing what the OP thought he did.
 
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TomFL

Guest
But they are also not going to say in one text, or passage of texts, one thing, and then in another text, or passage of texts, contradict it. I don’t know much about Barnes, but Calvin was a staunch defender of divine election and predestination, so whatever his thoughts were concerning John 1:29 were not going to contradict his beliefs regarding election and predestination.
Scripture does that

Unconditional election to salvation is not found in scripture

BTW all four point Calvinists believe in election and predestination
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
How so? How are they compatible? If expiation and propitiation are for the whole world, covering everybody w/o exception, then 1) ppl’s guilt have been taken away and 2) their sin debt has been paid in full. Then why are ppl going to stand before Him condemned in their sins, when their guilt has been taken away and also paid in full?

I do not, for one second, believe Calvin was expressing what the OP thought he did.
I'll be back tomorrow, I am out to Thursday night Meeting...
 
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TomFL

Guest
They get hung up on the word ‘world’ and think it means everybody w/o exception. Just like the word ‘all’.

If you have a child who wants cookies you may tell them, “Don’t eat all the cookies.” Obviously you wouldn’t mean “all the cookies in the world” but “all the cookies in the house.” Context is what demands the meaning of “all” and “world” mean in that given context.

Look at Elvis Presley, Billy Graham, & Michael Jackson. It’s a true statement to say they are known all around the world. It’s not true that “all in the world whoever lived” have heard of them. Just like the gospel. It has been proclaimed all over the world, yet millions(I read an article in April 2018 that of the 7.1 billion ppl on earth at that time, it was estimated that 3.4 billion of them still had not heard it). So, world does mean encompassing the world, but not that everybody knows about it.
Well lets see

You guys were challenged on the word world in John 12:47

and you all wiffed

Theo refused to answer

LaDodger as well

Carbon ignored half the verse and all of my argument based on what he left out

So your Elvis Presley, Billy Graham, Michael Johnson argument does not amount to a hill of beans

If you ignore the context all you have is a pretext
 

Terry43

Active member
How so? How are they compatible? If expiation and propitiation are for the whole world, covering everybody w/o exception, then 1) ppl’s guilt have been taken away and 2) their sin debt has been paid in full. Then why are ppl going to stand before Him condemned in their sins, when their guilt has been taken away and also paid in full?

I do not, for one second, believe Calvin was expressing what the OP thought he did.
Dont ask " Common sense " questions
 

Terry43

Active member
Well lets see

You guys were challenged on the word world in John 12:47

and you all wiffed

Theo refused to answer

LaDodger as well

Carbon ignored half the verse and all of my argument based on what he left out

So your Elvis Presley, Billy Graham, Michael Johnson argument does not amount to a hill of beans

If you ignore the context all you have is a pretext
I answered you on the word "WORLD" and will also answer you on PAS....
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Well lets see

You guys were challenged on the word world in John 12:47

and you all wiffed

Theo refused to answer

LaDodger as well

Carbon ignored half the verse and all of my argument based on what he left out

So your Elvis Presley, Billy Graham, Michael Johnson argument does not amount to a hill of beans

If you ignore the context all you have is a pretext
Tom, when we started to discuss these things, you did not accept anything I said, you just kept shoving the same cut and pastes over and over with out considering anything. How long do you expect people to play your game?
Your not going to find many who will continue with you. Not until you learn how to reason with others.

call it ignoring or whatever you like.
But your the one who actually ignores but expects people to answer you. Kinda one sided.
Don’t complain about what you created.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Tom, when we started to discuss these things, you did not accept anything I said, you just kept shoving the same cut and pastes over and over with out considering anything. How long do you expect people to play your game?
Your not going to find many who will continue with you. Not until you learn how to reason with others.

call it ignoring or whatever you like.
But your the one who actually ignores but expects people to answer you. Kinda one sided.
Don’t complain about what you created.
Sorry but you didn't

I offered an argument

you did not address it but gave your own thoughts on the verse

I challenged you to see what we could learn about the term world from the text

you just gave your assumption of what it meant without consideration of the text

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

You never answered these

and Lest you forget you did nothing with

For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and stated talking about Christ as prophet and priest nothing to do with anything I asked you

So no you did not address my argument
 
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civic

Well-known member
I'll be back tomorrow, I am out to Thursday night Meeting...
Me too starting a new study group tonight at my friends house. My wife wants to go and she is the boss :)

Happy wife, happy life !

PS I will be the one and only Calvinist in the group . Tonight’s study is from James 3 the wisdom of the world vs the wisdom from God. I’m not going to comment much unless my friend asks me. We both served on the elder board together in the 80’s- early 90’s in the Christian Missionary Alliance. We have been great friends for the past 35 years .
 
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TomFL

Guest
I answered you on the word "WORLD" and will also answer you on PAS....
I don't believe we have ever had a discussion on the word word in the context of John 12:47

If you think differently provide evidence
 
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TomFL

Guest
How so? How are they compatible? If expiation and propitiation are for the whole world, covering everybody w/o exception, then 1) ppl’s guilt have been taken away and 2) their sin debt has been paid in full. Then why are ppl going to stand before Him condemned in their sins, when their guilt has been taken away and also paid in full?

I do not, for one second, believe Calvin was expressing what the OP thought he did.
There is your first problem

You do not understand what you object to

No one is arguing that unbelievers have their sin removed

Only that Christ died for them and they can have their sins removed if they believe

In other words remission of sin, salvation are available to all

The provision is there

The application must be received through faith
 
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TomFL

Guest
Sorry but I did.
Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 
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