Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

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TomFL

Guest
Tom, when we started to discuss these things, you did not accept anything I said, you just kept shoving the same cut and pastes over and over with out considering anything. How long do you expect people to play your game?
Your not going to find many who will continue with you. Not until you learn how to reason with others.

call it ignoring or whatever you like.
But your the one who actually ignores but expects people to answer you. Kinda one sided.
Don’t complain about what you created.
Sorry but you didn't

I offered an argument

you did not address it but gave your own thoughts on the verse

I challenged you to see what we could learn about the term world from the text

you just gave your assumption of what it meant without consideration of the text

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

You never answered these

and Lest you forget you did nothing with

For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and stated talking about Christ as prophet and priest nothing to do with anything I asked you

So no you did not address my argument
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
I'll be back tomorrow, I am out to Thursday night Meeting...
Me too starting a new study group tonight at my friends house. My wife wants to go and she is the boss :)

Happy wife, happy life !

PS I will be the one and only Calvinist in the group . Tonight’s study is from James 3 the wisdom of the world vs the wisdom from God. I’m not going to comment much unless my friend asks me. We both served on the elder board together in the 80’s- early 90’s in the Christian Missionary Alliance. We have been great friends for the past 35 years .
 
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TomFL

Guest
I answered you on the word "WORLD" and will also answer you on PAS....
I don't believe we have ever had a discussion on the word word in the context of John 12:47

If you think differently provide evidence
 
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TomFL

Guest
How so? How are they compatible? If expiation and propitiation are for the whole world, covering everybody w/o exception, then 1) ppl’s guilt have been taken away and 2) their sin debt has been paid in full. Then why are ppl going to stand before Him condemned in their sins, when their guilt has been taken away and also paid in full?

I do not, for one second, believe Calvin was expressing what the OP thought he did.
There is your first problem

You do not understand what you object to

No one is arguing that unbelievers have their sin removed

Only that Christ died for them and they can have their sins removed if they believe

In other words remission of sin, salvation are available to all

The provision is there

The application must be received through faith
 
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TomFL

Guest
Sorry but I did.
Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
🥱
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
First of all, I think you should show this post to Seth (after he comes back from "vacation") to show you're not a Calvinist, as he falsely claimed.

Of the five points, Limited Atonement (or particular redemption) seems to be the most difficult to accept, but both sides seem to agree that the 5 points either stand together, or fall together.



I refer you back to my post about "all men" and "world", and the fact that the ancients didn't so much think in terms of "individuals", but in people "groups" (eg. JEWS, and GENTILES).

Refer back to Rev. 5:9, and ask yourself whether the "every" (a form of "all") refers to the individuals, or to the people GROUPS:

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed
people for God from
every tribe and language and people and nation,

"ransomed people FROM each of these groups...



While we should recognize the wisdom of Godly men before us, we can't be afraid to disagree with them when we think they're wrong. I'm sure we could find other scholars who studied the Greek directly, who you disagree with. So with scholars on both sides, what do we do? We have to disagree with SOMEONE, no matter what.

Let me ask you.... What is your position on water baptism?:

a) paedo-baptism (infant baptism);
b) credo-baptism (believer's baptism)?

I am thoroughly convinced from Scripture that credo-baptism is the Biblical way. They have to believe in Christ before they can confess Him as their Saviour. Yet Calvin was a believer in paedo-baptism, and Barnes, a Presbyterian, presumably also believed in paedo-baptism.

Do you agree with them on this point as well, or do you disagree?
So far I’m undecided of the limited/unlimited debate because I can see both sides . Can it be a paradox and both somehow are true and valid kind of like the Jesus two nature that se like a paradox but both are true?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
One the points I was trying to make was that there are reasonable interpretations to these passages by Calvinists as well.

Again, "world" in some instances simply means, "not just Jews (as a group), but Gentiles (as a group) as well. Not that everyone in each group was atoned for, but there are those in all groups (Rev. 5:9) who will be ransomed.
Thank you it’s a very complex idea to resolve for me. I’m going to kept my mind open for the time being and not make any haste decisions one way or the other until I have given it more time studying this in depth.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Exactly

you can't

Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 
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TomFL

Guest
That is interesting thank you .
Reference John 12:47

The reason Christ does not judge any unbeliever is because he came not to judge but save the world

It therefore becomes obvious the term world includes any unbeliever

These Jesus came to save

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

now compare with the parallel John 3:17


John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 
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TomFL

Guest
First of all, I think you should show this post to Seth (after he comes back from "vacation") to show you're not a Calvinist, as he falsely claimed.

Of the five points, Limited Atonement (or particular redemption) seems to be the most difficult to accept, but both sides seem to agree that the 5 points either stand together, or fall together.



I refer you back to my post about "all men" and "world", and the fact that the ancients didn't so much think in terms of "individuals", but in people "groups" (eg. JEWS, and GENTILES).

Refer back to Rev. 5:9, and ask yourself whether the "every" (a form of "all") refers to the individuals, or to the people GROUPS:

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed
people for God from
every tribe and language and people and nation,

"ransomed people FROM each of these groups...

Rev 5:9 does not use the terms all men or world

it speaks of those who were actually redeemed - those who received the application of the atonement through faith .
It does not address who the atonement is available for - the extent of the atonement

You assume the atonement applies its own benefits- it doesn't it must be received through faith
 
T

TomFL

Guest
So far I’m undecided of the limited/unlimited debate because I can see both sides . Can it be a paradox and both somehow are true and valid kind of like the Jesus two nature that se like a paradox but both are true?

As Theo was informed

Rev 5:9 does not use the terms all men or world

it speaks of those who were actually redeemed - those who received the application of the atonement through faith .
It does not address who the atonement is available for - the extent of the atonement

You assume the atonement applies its own benefits- it doesn't it must be received through faith
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
Exactly

you can't

Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
So in Romans 1:8 does world there mean every last single person who has ever lived? Had every last person heard of their faith?
 
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TomFL

Guest
So in Romans 1:8 does world there mean every last single person who has ever lived? Had every last person heard of their faith?
Why are you diverting

The context concerns John 12:47 not Romans 1:8

Words have a range of meaning

and context determines the particular meaning in its context

If you avoid the context you offer but a pretext
 
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