Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

[Reformedguy]

Why are you diverting

The context concerns John 12:47 not Romans 1:8

Words have a range of meaning

and context determines the particular meaning in its context

If you avoid the context you offer but a pretext

Words have a range of meaning? Really? So world does not have to mean every last person who ever lived? Who knew right?

 

[TomFL]

Words have a range of meaning? Really? So world does not have to mean every last person who ever lived? Who knew right?

You mean you did not know

Have you never looked at a dictionary or a lexicon ?

Who know - most everybody but you

Address the context of the proffered verse

 

[Reformedguy]

You mean you did not know

Have you never looked at a dictionary or a lexicon ?

Who know - most everybody but you

Address the context of the proffered verse

Which offered poroffered verse? Your a proof texter

By the way you did not answer my question. Was their faith proclaimed to every last person who ever lived in the first century?

 

[Ken Hamrick]

To say that a man’s sins have been atoned for but the atonement has not yet been applied, is like saying a house has been painted but the paint just hasn’t been applied yet. Atonement is an OT concept, and the word there actually means to cover as with paint. Hint: when were your sin-stained robes washed in the blood of the Lamb?That is atonement; and there is no way to separate it from “application” and stay true to the biblical concept. Another hint: find one example in the OT where anyone was atoned for without faith.

 

[TomFL]

Which offered poroffered verse? Your a proof texter

By the way you did not answer my question. Was their faith proclaimed to every last person who ever lived in the first century?

John 12:47

Your question is irrelevant as context determines the meaning in each case

Your verse is an example of hyperbole, so no not literally every person

that does nothing at all to change the meaning of world in John 12:47 and other text

So if you want to actually deal with the meaning in John 12:27 and other soteriologically sensitive verses

you will actually have to exegete them and not run to irrelevant examples

 

[Ken Hamrick]

The blood of Christ applied to the sinner is atonement. How is it applied? It is applied only by spiritual union of Christ and the believer. Only after Christ is in me does God see me as if it was me who had lived His righteous life and died His atoning death. Only after He is in me does what He did count as having been in my place. Only when the Christ of the cross is in me does His death propitiate God in my case. Until then, I remain under wrath and my sins have not been atoned for.

 

[Chalcedon]

To say that a man’s sins have been atoned for but the atonement has not yet been applied, is like saying a house has been painted but the paint just hasn’t been applied yet. Atonement is an OT concept, and the word there actually means to cover as with paint. Hint: when were your sin-stained robes washed in the blood of the Lamb?That is atonement; and there is no way to separate it from “application” and stay true to the biblical concept. Another hint: find one example in the OT where anyone was atoned for without faith.

Your post reminded me of Exodus 12. The night of the Passover when the God commands them to paint their doorsteps with the blood for the last plague. That was an act of faith by the Israelites and the Lord passed over them with the angel of death on their firstborn.

 

[Reformedguy]

John 12:47

Your question is irrelevant as context determines the meaning in each case

Your verse is an example of hyperbole, so no not literally every personIt

that does nothing at all to change the meaning of world in John 12:47 and other text

So if you want to actually deal with the meaning in John 12:27 and other soteriologically sensitive verses

you will actually have to exegete them and not run to irrelevant examples

Really? Its hyperbole? Who says? Its not literally every person? How do you decide what is literal and what is not? So world does not have to mean every single person who ever lived then I guess. lol

The audience is the Jews and the context is unbelief among them

 

[Ken Hamrick]

Atonement is completely effective, fully particular and universally applicable. No double jeopardy. No commercialism. No paradoxes. No limitation other than the need for faith.

 

[TomFL]

To say that a man’s sins have been atoned for but the atonement has not yet been applied, is like saying a house has been painted but the paint just hasn’t been applied yet. Atonement is an OT concept, and the word there actually means to cover as with paint. Hint: when were your sin-stained robes washed in the blood of the Lamb?That is atonement; and there is no way to separate it from “application” and stay true to the biblical concept. Another hint: find one example in the OT where anyone was atoned for without faith.

But what I noted was Christ died for all and those who trust in him have their sins forgiven

There was a provision Christs death

He died for all according to scripture

Those who believe receive the benefit of Christ's sacrifice

 

[Chalcedon]

Did you serious declare the Atonement is completely effective and then stipulate there is a need for faith?????

That kind of "double talk" is what drives Atheist and Agnostic rhetoric against Christianity.

Do you believe your sins were forgiven prior to faith in Christ ?

If so why the necessity for faith ?

 

[TomFL]

Atonement is completely effective, fully particular and universally applicable. No double jeopardy. No commercialism. No paradoxes. No limitation other than the need for faith.

How can there be a need for faith when you have the atonement (Christ's sacrifice) applying its own benefits

Further in saying it is universally applicable have you not ventured into universalism and contradicted your claim fully particular

 

[Chalcedon]

Do you believe your sin was forgiven in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world?

No not until I believed. I'm not saved prior to faith either. Otherwise the 100's of passages about faith linked with salvation, redemption, justification etc...... are meaningless.

 

[TomFL]

Really? Its hyperbole? Who says? Its not literally every person? How do you decide what is literal and what is not? So world does not have to mean every single person who ever lived then I guess. lol

The audience is the Jews and the context is unbelief among them

Context and a little common sense

BTW the Context of Romans 1-8 is not unbelief

Are you ever going to address a relevant example such as John 12:47

 

[Johnnybgood]

Exactly

you can't

Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus makes it sound like He is the Judge here. Are you saying Jesus will not Judge every person ?

John 5
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

 

[Johnnybgood]

Rev 5:9 does not use the terms all men or world

it speaks of those who were actually redeemed - those who received the application of the atonement through faith .
It does not address who the atonement is available for - the extent of the atonement

You assume the atonement applies its own benefits- it doesn't it must be received through faith

I do not see every single person in the verse just people from every nation.

Revelations 5
And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

 

[Chalcedon]

I do not see every single person in the verse just people from every nation.

Revelations 5
And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

As you noticed the passage does not say He purchased every single person but that He purchased people from every tribe and nation. That is a big difference. So in the above passage the ones purchased are limited in scope. This verse cannot in its context support that every single person who has ever lived had their sins purchased by His blood. There are better verses that can be used to support that argument such as in 1 John 2:1-2 and John 1:29. And even those verses as you have noticed are debated even among Calvinists.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomFL]

I do not see every single person in the verse just people from every nation.

Revelations 5
And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

The verse says nothing at all about the limit for whom Christ died

It speaks of those who have been redeemed

that requires faith

The verse can be a proof text against universalism

but unlimited extent of the atonement is not about universalism

It is about who may be saved by believing in Christ (because provision has been made for them)

as such that passage does not address the question

and represents a failure to understand the position being objected to

 

[Johnnybgood]

The verse says nothing at all about who Christ died for

It speaks of those who have been redeemed

that requires faith

The verse can be a proof text against universalism

but unlimited extent of the atonement is not about universalism

It is about who may be saved by believing in Christ

as such that passage does not address the question

and represents a failure to understand the position being objected to

I misunderstood your point sorry about that. Universalism is wrong so I’m in agreement with you TomFL.

 

[TomFL]

I misunderstood your point sorry about that. Universalism is wrong so I’m in agreement with you TomFL.

Ok no problem