Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Context and a little common sense

BTW the Context of Romans 1-8 is not unbelief

Are you ever going to address a relevant example such as John 12:47
Context of Romans 1 is what exactly? Common sense according to who?

Sure will. You asked for context and I threw in audience relevance just for good measure. Not that you would consider but you never know
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Context of Romans 1 is what exactly? Common sense according to who?

Sure will. You asked for context and I threw in audience relevance just for good measure. Not that you would consider but you never know
Romans 1:1-8 (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

demonstrate where unbelief is spoken of
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I do not see every single person in the verse just people from every nation.
What do you think about this drive-by Post?

The Golgatha Purchase ~ by ReverendRV

2ndPeter 2:1 KJV
; But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I’ve recently been debating with an Atheist who uses Slavery as a reason to not believe in the God of the Bible. I told him about the Voluntary Servitude the Bible endorses, but he insists on debating about God endorsing Involuntary Servitude; citing Leviticus 25. I said, “I see what you are saying; you're drawing a distinction between the acceptable Servitude of a Jew to a Jew, and the unacceptable Slavery of Gentiles to a Jew. May I suggest that these verses are a Type for the New Testament; If Israel were not permitted to buy people, then Peter couldn’t have said Jesus bought the Heretics.” The Lord Jesus Christ couldn’t have Purchased the World if it were not legal for Jews to purchase Gentiles and be their Sovereign…

If it were illegal for Jews to own Slaves, the Jewish Jesus Christ would not have been able to buy the World from Satan, who gained Dominion from Adam through the Fall. It is like the Louisiana Purchase; Dominion over the Land and the People was purchased. ~ But you Object, “What’s all this Slavery guff? I’ve never been a Slave”. When you Sin, you’re a Slave to Sin and Satan; have you ever told a Lie? What do YOU call people who Lie to you? If you’ve ever found yourself compelled to tell a Lie and you couldn’t help yourself, you are a Slave to Sin and Satan; or you were. You’re still a Slave to Sin but now you are Christ’s Slave as he paid for his Kingdom with his Blood. Your Lies used to deliver you out of trouble but now that you have a new Master, they bring you under his Judgment. As God Incarnate, the Son of God owns you; but through the 'Golgatha Purchase', the Man Jesus Christ bought all of Humanity. ~ If the Bible is true, then you are the Slave of Christ; awaiting either swift destruction; or Forgiveness of Sin...

Forgiveness of Sins is found only in one Name under heaven. ~ For God so loved the World he gave us his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not swiftly perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ bore the Sin of the world while dying on a Cross, to pay the Death Penalty God requires for our Trespasses and Sins; but he arose from the Grave to prepare a place for us in Heaven to be with him. We’re Saved by the Gracious Forgiveness of God, through Faith in Jesus Christ and what he’s done for us, instead of anything we could ever do for ourselves. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ are your Lord God, and become his Voluntary Servant at a Bible loving Church. ~ Sinners are Involuntary Servants of Jesus Christ, as they choose their Sin over their Righteous Master; remaining Voluntary Slaves of Sin…

1st Corinthians 7:22-23; KJV; For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
As you noticed the passage does not say He purchased every single person but that He purchased people from every tribe and nation. That is a big difference. So in the above passage the ones purchased are limited in scope. This verse cannot in its context support that every single person who has ever lived had their sins purchased by His blood. There are better verses that can be used to support that argument such as in 1 John 2:1-2 and John 1:29. And even those verses as you have noticed are debated even among Calvinists.

hope this helps !!!

The bible also notes


2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

the Lord even bought the false prophets

faith in the lord is still required to end up in heaven
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Exactly

you can't

Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
😴
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Another non responsive reply

You appear to be specializing in that


Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Reformedguy said:

Is it hyperbole? Saying it does not make it so. Show me, don't tell me

exaggeration ἡ πίστις ὑμῶν καταγγέλλεται ἐν ὅλῳ τ. κόσμῳ Ro 1:8

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Another non responsive reply

You appear to be specializing in that


Show where you answered my specific questions

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

according to the text why does Jesus not judge any who do not believe ?

Based on that what is the relation of the unbeliever to the world ?

and originally who did Jesus come to save in the world (according to the text)

and then compare

John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Yea we all specialize in something Tom.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

the Lord even bought the false prophets

That's not referring to Christ, nor is it referring to the atonement.
I understand why you ASSUME it is, but it's not.

No mention of "Jesus".
No mention of "Christ".
No mention of "kurios" ("Lord").
No mention of "cross".
No mention of "redemption".
No mention of "atonement".
No mention of "blood".

2Pet. 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (ESV)

The term translated "Master" here is the Greek, "despotes", and Peter NEVER referred to Christ as "despotes", only "kurios" ("Lord").
 
T

TomFL

Guest
That's not referring to Christ, nor is it referring to the atonement.
I understand why you ASSUME it is, but it's not.

No mention of "Jesus".
No mention of "Christ".
No mention of "kurios" ("Lord").
No mention of "cross".
No mention of "redemption".
No mention of "atonement".
No mention of "blood".

2Pet. 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (ESV)

The term translated "Master" here is the Greek, "despotes", and Peter NEVER referred to Christ as "despotes", only "kurios" ("Lord").

Peter never referred to The Father as master either

However it is inescapable one on these are meant

and Peter never refered to anyone else as master

Jude uses it here and never uses it of any other

Jude 4 (ESV)
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

of Jesus Christ


We know that denying this master is a heresy in the church

that limits it to Christ or the Father

and no matter which one the purchase price is Christs blood

So Christ died even for the false prophets
 
T

TomFL

Guest
It's referring to the Father.

You provide no proof of that

Despote is used of Christ in Jude

Jude 1:4 (ESV)
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

The setting as in 2Peter concerns the church

and we read of some denying the only lord and master Jesus Christ

Again, you PROJECT "Christ" into the passage.
You would have to assert that some are redeemed with the Father's blood.
No i would not assert the Fathers blood bought anyone

The Father does not have blood
Still nope.
2 Pet. 2:1 STILL isn't about "atonement".

Again no proof of anything

In the church, men are bought with Christ's blood

so whether you say the Father or Christ bought them the purchase price is Christ's blood

So Christ died even for the false prophets
 
Last edited by a moderator:
T

TomFL

Guest
It's referring to the Father.



Again, you PROJECT "Christ" into the passage.
You would have to assert that some are redeemed with the Father's blood.



Still nope.
2 Pet. 2:1 STILL isn't about "atonement".
BTW Calvin disagrees with you also

What is said here will hereafter become more evident from the words of Jude, [Jude 1:4,] who treats exactly of the same subject.
Calvin's Commentaries.

Even denying the Lord that bought them. Though Christ may be denied in various ways, yet Peter, as I think, refers here to what is expressed by Jude, that is, when the grace of God is turned into lasciviousness; for Christ redeemed us, that he might have a people separated from all the pollutions of the world, and devoted to holiness and innocency. They, then, who throw off the bridle, and give themselves up to all kinds of licentiousness, are not unjustly said to deny Christ by whom they have been redeemed.
Calvin's Commentaries.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You provide no proof of that

Despote is used of Christ in Jude

So what?
It's also used of the Father in Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24, and Rev. 6:10.

So it appears to be arbitrary cherry-picking by you to ASSUME that it MUST be referring to Christ.

The setting as in 2Peter concerns the church

So believers weren't created by God?
Is that what you're saying?

Again no proof of anything

... in your posts.
And you are 100% correct.

In the church, men are bought with Christ's blood

Correct.
But that is not the context of 2 Pet. 2:1.

So Christ died even for the false prophets

Still wrong...
 
Top