Jesus Christ Before His Incarnation As Seen By O.T. Saints

Hark

Well-known member
Believe it or not, men had seen God & lived in the O.T. To reprove any notion that this was God the Father that those men had seen, Jesus said this;

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So no man has seen God the Father except Jesus because He is God.

Now for scripture proving Jesus Christ was the God men had seen in the O.T.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life..... 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Now read His words that Jesus had not only seen Abraham but He declared His deity as before Abraham , I AM.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So the Lord appearing to Abraham in Genesis 12:7 & Genesis 17:1 & Genesis 18:1 and to Isaac in Genesis 26:1-2 & Genesis 26:24 and to Jacob in Genesis 32:24-30 was Jesus Christ BEFORE His incarnation as the prophesied Son of Man to give His life as a ransom for many.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Believe it or not, men had seen God & lived in the O.T. To reprove any notion that this was God the Father that those men had seen, Jesus said this;
True Adam became like Him to know this difference, Abraham did to, so did Moses, so did Jesus in Matt 3:16, so did 120 in an upper room and so do all today who receives the same from Him.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Absolutely and He doesnt come with observation the kingdom of God is within you, or is supposed to be within you as He was in all of these. One has to be gods son where He is your Father or you never will understand how to declare Him as your Father as Jesus did.
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Yes and when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him, 1 John 3, Not many has seen Him have they? Fe win facvt find His way.
So no man has seen God the Father except Jesus because He is God.
Oh no not at all. All who has received from God that what Jesus received from Him in Matt 3:16 has seen Him for who He really is 1 John 3. We are like Him.
Now for scripture proving Jesus Christ was the God men had seen in the O.T.
Jesus didnt come for 4000 years after the old text. And was here for only a short 33 years. But Gods SPirit has always been with all who has received Him. for 6000 years Even Jesus received the same in Mat 33:16. as these did before him.

You have been duped into believing doctrines of man instead of receiving from Gird yourself that what jesus did and these others did.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....

Bingo not many come to Him to have His life as your own just as it says and walk as He walks in His same light. You only walk in the light of some religious belief instead of He in you and you in Him as one as Jesus, Abraham, Moses, and 120 and others were like Him/ you dont have a clue what it is to be as these were in the Father. . .
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Again if you cant received from God that what these did then you on your own beliefs for a god.
Now read His words that Jesus had not only seen Abraham but He declared His deity as before Abraham , I AM.
yes Jesus was clear that you be as I AM, He in you and you in Him as one as Jesus was in Him. read John 17, better yet apply it to yourself where God will be manifest in you just as He was in jesus and these others who received from God His disposition. . Everyone who has received from God His deity as at work in us no different from any of these who received from God. Even Jesus did in Matt 3:16.

You haven't received from God that what these did have you?
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
My Father is not Abraham, by Father is God same Father Jesus had as we are His sons. Before Abraham was I AM just as Jesus said speaking of his Father who came to him and opened all of His heaven to him in Matt 3:16. he did the same in Abraham, Moses, Jesus 120, and us all today no different at al who will receive Him as these did.

Jesus didnt say he was I AM LOL, he said I AM has was before Abraham, I AM was before Moses, I AM was before Jesus, I AM was before 120, and I AM is before all today. You dont know who I AM is do you?
So the Lord appearing to Abraham in Genesis 12:7 & Genesis 17:1 & Genesis 18:1 and to Isaac in Genesis 26:1-2 & Genesis 26:24 and to Jacob in Genesis 32:24-30 was Jesus Christ BEFORE His incarnation as the prophesied Son of Man to give His life as a ransom for many.
No not at all. Jesus didnt even know God or His SPirit until God came to Him in Matt 3:16 and opened all of His heavens to that man just as He did in Abraham, Moses, 120 and us all today who receives Him as our own way, own truth. and the life to live?

How can one say he is of God if you are not like Him? You cant at all. Most dont know what it is to be like Him. DO you? I do. SO did Abraham, Moses Jesus. 120, even Adam became like Him to know this difference gen 3;l22.

Can you tell me what it is to Be as His is and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect as Jesus commanded of you? And walk as He walks in His same light as Jesus did? I bet that you cant.
 

Hark

Well-known member
True Adam became like Him to know this difference, Abraham did to, so did Moses, so did Jesus in Matt 3:16, so did 120 in an upper room and so do all today who receives the same from Him.
Became like Him? And so did Jesus too in Matthew 3:16? His water baptism was the fulfillment of this prophesy.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

God the Redeemer is speaking and yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him. That was what Jesus meant for why this water baptism was about; to fulfill all righteousness by signifying God the Father & the Holy Spirit sent Him as God His Son.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Why was the witness of the Holy Spirit necessary for the Father's witness to be true? What God requires of man in witnessing, so does He do.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

So Matthew 3:16-17 is about the fulfillment of the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17 for how God the Father & the Holy Spirit testified that Jesus as His Son is God.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Became like Him? And so did Jesus too in Matthew 3:16? His water baptism was the fulfillment of this prophesy.
No it wasn't at all, Gods SPirit who came to Him was the fulfilment. Only by His Spirit can God open His kingdom in you. Water is a man made ritual and not the same at all as God manifest in you by His SPirit as He did in Jesus, inn Moses ion Abraham in 120 in an upper room
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You really do not know how His SPirit does open His heaven do you?
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

God the Redeemer is speaking and yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him. That was what Jesus meant for why this water baptism was about; to fulfill all righteousness by signifying God the Father & the Holy Spirit sent Him as God His Son.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Why was the witness of the Holy Spirit necessary for the Father's witness to be true? What God requires of man in witnessing, so does He do.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

So Matthew 3:16-17 is about the fulfillment of the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17 for how God the Father & the Holy Spirit testified that Jesus as His Son is God.
Matt 3:16 is only testimony of How God comes to man by His SPirit and opens all of His heaven to you. Sadly that doesnt work for most of you in this forum does it? .
 

Hark

Well-known member
No it wasn't at all, Gods SPirit who came to Him was the fulfilment.
So why did God the Father spoke from Heaven in testifying of His Son as God? Applying that to mean our salvation when Jesus did not need saving, does throw your application out as not aligning with scripture at all.
Only by His Spirit can God open His kingdom in you.
Applying that to Jesus when He has not died yet nor buried and resurrected yet, or even ascended yet for why the Father would send the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation per John 14:25-26 is an oversight on your part.
Water is a man made ritual and not the same at all as God manifest in you by His SPirit as He did in Jesus, inn Moses ion Abraham in 120 in an upper room
In no way what happened to Jesus is the same thing as what had happened to us at our salvation because us coming to & believing in Jesus Christ is how we are saved, born again, and had received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation.
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You really do not know how His SPirit does open His heaven do you?
Jesus is the only way that by coming to & believing in the Son is how for anyone to be born of the Spirit.
Matt 3:16 is only testimony of How God comes to man by His SPirit and opens all of His heaven to you. Sadly that doesnt work for most of you in this forum does it? .
Did the Father also spoke from Heaven when the Holy Spirit was manifested in you for everyone else to hear? So that doesn't really work for you per your application, now does it? You sow doubts to saved believers about their salvation, but how you judge, you judge yourself, brother.

No outward manifestation is needed to prove that we are saved when believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God also.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The 2 scripture references above show God the Father at work in how He hides the truth from the prudent and yet He can reveal the truth to even babes. Why des He do this? Because He knows who is seeking Him from those that do not because they prefer their evil deeds.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

When Jesus says this below is why no ne can tell from outward appearance when someone is born again of the Spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is why Paul said this.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

No one should doubt their salvation when by believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God the Father.

If you are trying to make sense of some phenomenon that happened to you later in life as a saved believer for why you are applying John 3:16 to mean, that was not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the antichrist. Antichrist as it is used in scripture means "instead of the Christ" or to be more precise "instead of the Son". The indwelling Holy Spirit would continue to point you to the Son whereas visiting spirits of the antichrists would point you to themselves in chasing after them again to receive after a sign. That is how the world receives spirits, but Jesus says otherwise.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So stop exalting yourself over others for that may very well be seen as denying Christ that bought them when they had believed in Him at the calling of the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

That is why the "brother" in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 is not judged as not saved but the church was to excommunicate him for not repenting in the hopes that he may repent ( which he did ) but the purpose was explained in verse 4-5.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is what Christ as the Bridegroom will do when He judges His House first, as He is faithful in keeping the souls of His saints per 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV when leaving even former believers behind along with unrepentant Christians that did not look to Him for help to depart from iniquity.
 

rakovsky

Active member
So the Lord appearing to Abraham in Genesis 12:7 & Genesis 17:1 & Genesis 18:1 and to Isaac in Genesis 26:1-2 & Genesis 26:24 and to Jacob in Genesis 32:24-30 was Jesus Christ BEFORE His incarnation as the prophesied Son of Man to give His life as a ransom for many.
I agree with what you are saying in this thread.
The topic reminds me of this thread:

I got a lot of flack for saying that Melchizedek was probably Christ before the Incarnation happened in chronological time.
The opponents to the idea of the preincarnate Christ appearing seem to be coming from the idea that it would violate principles of the Natural Order, ie. a person appearing to someone else before the person's birth. But the problem with that Skeptical/Naturalistic approach is that the Bible does not really act in obedience to Naturalistic principles very well, especially when it comes to God's supernatural actions.
 
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