Jesus Christ claims he was sent by the Father.

For those who are claiming the Son is not a separate individual, the following language has certainly been pointed out endless times.

John 5:37 καὶ ὁ πέμψας με πατὴρ ἐκεῖνος μεμαρτύρηκεν περὶ ἐμοῦ. οὔτε φωνὴν αὐτοῦ πώποτε ἀκηκόατε οὔτε εἶδος αὐτοῦ ἑωράκατε,

John 5:37 (NRSV) And the Father who sent me has himself testified on my behalf. You have never heard his voice or seen his form,

The sent language is used first by John the Baptist:

John 1:33 κἀγὼ οὐκ ᾔδειν αὐτόν, ἀλλ᾿ ὁ πέμψας με βαπτίζειν ἐν ὕδατι ἐκεῖνός μοι εἶπεν· ἐφ᾿ ὃν ἂν ἴδῃς τὸ πνεῦμα καταβαῖνον καὶ μένον ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ βαπτίζων ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίω

John 1:33 (NRSV) I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

You can find this language:
John 1:33, John 4:34, John 5:24, John 5:30, John 5:37, John 6:38, John 6:39, John 6:44, John 7:16, John 7:28, John 7:33, John 8:16, John 8:18, John 8:26, John 8:29, John 9:4, John 12:44, John 12:45, John 12:49, John 13:20, John 14:24, John 15:21, John 16:5.
 
For those who are claiming the Son is not a separate individual, the following language has certainly been pointed out endless times.

I guess you must be talking about @DoctrinesofGraceBapt...

BTW, we don't believe the Father and the Son are "separate individuals".

I on the other hand believe there is only ONE individual who transcends all creations.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
I guess you must be talking about @DoctrinesofGraceBapt...
"For those who are claiming the Son is not a separate individual, the following language has certainly been pointed out endless times."


I on the other hand believe there is only ONE individual who transcends all creations.
"BTW, we don't believe the Father and the Son are "separate individuals"."

Wow, you found someone who supposedly misspoke. Congrats, you've wasted everyones time. Have you connected how he was trying to use the phrase "separate individual" from how I use it? Have to looked at the creeds to see who is theologically orthodox and who is heterodox? Have you done anything meaningful? The answer to these questions is sadly no. Thanks for wasting everyones time.

God Bless
 
Wow, you found someone who supposedly misspoke. Congrats, you've wasted everyones time. Have you connected how he was trying to use the phrase "separate individual" from how I use it? Have to looked at the creeds to see who is theologically orthodox and who is heterodox? Have you done anything meaningful? The answer to these questions is sadly no. Thanks for wasting everyones time.

God Bless

Why do you judge @Stirling Bartholomew and assume he misspoke?

Perhaps he said EXACTLY what he meant to say.


@Stirling Bartholomew, did you mean to say...

For those who are claiming the Son is not a separate individual, the following language has certainly been pointed out endless times.



I am pointing this out because I think many who try to defend the doctrine of the Trinity often make polytheistic statements.

And we should point out polytheistic statements.

Right?
 
Why do you judge @Stirling Bartholomew and assume he misspoke?

Perhaps he said EXACTLY what he meant to say.


@Stirling Bartholomew, did you mean to say...

For those who are claiming the Son is not a separate individual, the following language has certainly been pointed out endless times.

What part of "Have you connected how he was trying to use the phrase "separate individual" from how I use it?" did you miss? I think you are too busy trying to find discrepancies as to understand what is being said.

I am pointing this out because I think many who try to defend the doctrine of the Trinity often make polytheistic statements.

And we should point out polytheistic statements.

Right?

Sure. Have at it.

God Bless
 

johnny guitar

Active member
I guess you must be talking about @DoctrinesofGraceBapt...



I on the other hand believe there is only ONE individual who transcends all creations.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
ONE God(Father, Son, Holy Spirit)transcends all creations.
 
Define individual.

Using the definition for "individual" as used in the OP by a TRINITARIAN...

For those who are claiming the Son is not a separate individual, the following language has certainly been pointed out endless times.

So in this statement by another TRINITARIAN...

ONE God(Father, Son, Holy Spirit)transcends all creations.

How many "individuals" is that?
 
Using the definition for "individual" as used in the OP by a TRINITARIAN...

According to that definition, individual simply describes what is commonly referred to as person in Trinitarian circles. I wouldn't use it that way because I find it confusing. But, that's what he means according to the verses he employed.

God Bless
 
According to that definition, individual simply describes what is commonly referred to as person in Trinitarian circles. I wouldn't use it that way because I find it confusing. But, that's what he means according to the verses he employed.

God Bless

So......

How many individuals is "ONE God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)"?

That was the question.
 
So......

How many individuals is "ONE God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)"?

That was the question.

You can't figure it out? In Trinitarianism, there are three persons who are the one God. According to the above definition of individual, there are three. Again, I don't like that definition because you are likely thinking three individuals means three Gods. But, that's not what Trinitarians believe.

God Bless
 
You can't figure it out? In Trinitarianism, there are three persons who are the one God. According to the above definition of individual, there are three. Again, I don't like that definition because you are likely thinking three individuals means three Gods. But, that's not what Trinitarians believe.

God Bless

If three individuals means three Gods, wouldn't three persons mean three Gods as well?

The dictionary seems to give them similar definitions...

individual: a single human being as distinct from a group, class, or family.
person: a human being regarded as an individual.

If not, what do you see as the difference between a "person" and an "individual"?

In other words, what is the difference between these two statements...
Trinitarians believe God is three Persons.
Trinitarians believe God is three Individuals.
 
If three individuals means three Gods, wouldn't three persons mean three Gods as well?

The dictionary seems to give them similar definitions...

individual: a single human being as distinct from a group, class, or family.
person: a human being regarded as an individual.

No; in historic Trinitarian theology, person is defined in a specific way as to not imply three persons mean three Gods. These definitions you gave are simply not relevant to this discussion.

If not, what do you see as the difference between a "person" and an "individual"?

In other words, what is the difference between these two statements...
Trinitarians believe God is three Persons.
Trinitarians believe God is three Individuals.

For most Trinitarians, the term individual implies a unit of being and person while the term person has no implication on being.

God Bless
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
No; in historic Trinitarian theology, person is defined in a specific way as to not imply three persons mean three Gods. These definitions you gave are simply not relevant to this discussion.



For most Trinitarians, the term individual implies a unit of being and person while the term person has no implication on being.


God Bless

Where may I find these definitions? Where may I find the official definitions of the terms?

Or are they an "oral tradition" like the Pharisees had.
 
Where may I find these definitions? Where may I find the official definitions of the terms?
Or are they an "oral tradition" like the Pharisees had.

In systematic theologies. Wayne Grudem wrote a good one. It's not like these definitions are new. The Westminster Confession of Faith states:

"In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

Three persons of one substance implies this use of person implies nothing about distinct beings: three persons, one being.

God Bless
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
In systematic theologies. Wayne Grudem wrote a good one. It's not like these definitions are new. The Westminster Confession of Faith states:

"In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

Three persons of one substance implies this use of person implies nothing about distinct beings: three persons, one being.

God Bless

So Wayne Grudem is the place where Trinitarians have deposited the definitions of the official terms for the doctrine of the Trinity?

Or is this just Wayne Grudem's idea of the Trinity and not THE doctrine of the Trinity. I am not interested in Bob or Joe's Trinity. Where do I find THE doctrine of the Trinity which Trinitarians keep talking about? WHERE is it, WHERE may I find it, and WHERE are the official definitions of the terms used in THE doctrine of the Trinity?
 
So Wayne Grudem is the place where Trinitarians have deposited the definitions of the official terms for the doctrine of the Trinity?

What part of "In systematic theologies. Wayne Grudem wrote a good one." lead you to believe "Wayne Grudem is the place where Trinitarians have deposited the definitions"? There are literally countless books on the topic. Read something for goodness sake.

Or is this just Wayne Grudem's idea of the Trinity and not THE doctrine of the Trinity. I am not interested in Bob or Joe's Trinity. Where do I find THE doctrine of the Trinity which Trinitarians keep talking about? WHERE is it, WHERE may I find it, and WHERE are the official definitions of the terms used in THE doctrine of the Trinity?

Dude, Trinitarians have been teaching and writing books on this subject for almost 2000 years. Augustine wrote On the Trinity in the 4th Century. Go out, buy a book on the topic, and read it for yourself. You can literally find hundreds on Amazon right now.

God Bless
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
What part of "In systematic theologies. Wayne Grudem wrote a good one." lead you to believe "Wayne Grudem is the place where Trinitarians have deposited the definitions"? There are literally countless books on the topic. Read something for goodness sake.

Like I said, I am not interested in Joe's doctrine of the Trinity or Bob's. Show me where to find THE doctrine of the Trinity.


Dude, Trinitarians have been teaching and writing books on this subject for almost 2000 years. Augustine wrote On the Trinity in the 4th Century. Go out, buy a book on the topic, and read it for yourself. You can literally find hundreds on Amazon right now.

God Bless

If they have been writing about THE doctrine of the Trinity, where can this doctrine be found that they wrote about? I am not interested in their versions but only in THE doctrine of the Trinity.
 
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