Jesus is found in Zechariah 12

The Prophet

Active member
Zechariah 12
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

It is quite evident that it was Jesus who was pierced and called Jehovah from this complete chapter
 

The Prophet

Active member
The Bible says Paradise is in the third heaven or where God dwells:



1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day



2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3



3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2



This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven



2 Corth 12:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22
1: And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

REV 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere Rakia to a Jew


“The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.” (Genesis 8:2)

“Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce....”(Deuteronomy 11:17)

“The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.” (Deuteronomy 28:12)

"O LORD, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.” (Judges 5:4)

“When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you …” (1 Kings 8:35)

"Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons...” (Acts 14:17)


The Second Heaven: Outer Space shamayim to a Jew

“Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” (Genesis 15:5)

“In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun... It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other...” (Psalm 19:4, 6)

“They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served....” (Jeremiah 8:2)

“The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.” (Isaiah 13:10)


The Third Heaven: God's Dwelling Place shemi Hashamayim to a Jew


“To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.” (Deuteronomy 10:14)

“… and their prayer came up to His holy dwelling place, to heaven.” (2 Chronicles 30:27)

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.” (1 Kings 8:27)

(phrase repeated numerous times in following verses) “then hear from heaven, your dwelling place...” (1 Kings 8:30)

“The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them.” (Psalm 2:4)

“Unto you I lift up my eyes, O You who dwell in the heavens.” (Psalm 123:1)

“In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16)

And I might add, he beginning of the Lord's prayer, "Our Father, Who art IN HEAVEN..."


the word “Paradise” (Gk. paradeisos) clearly means “heaven.” In 2 Cor. 12:4 it is the place to which Paul was caught up in his revelation of heaven, and in Rev. 2:7 it is the place where we find the tree of life—which is clearly heaven in Rev. 22:2, 14.

Grudem, Wayne A.. Bible Doctrine (p. 258). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.
 

101G

Well-known member
Addressing the OP, 100% correct. The LORD is the Lord, who is JESUS, our ONE, and ONLY, TRUE, and, LIVING, "GOD". meaning that JESUS, who is God, is the "ECHAD" of HIMSELF with the titles of himself as the Ordinal "FIRST", (Spirit), CREATOR, and MAKER, of all things. with the titles "LORD", and "Father". and JESUS as the Ordinal "LAST" which was to come, (shared in flesh as a man), REEDEMER, and SAVIOUR, of all things, titles, "Lord" and "Son".

so yes, you're correct,

PICJAG,
101G.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Zechariah 12
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

It is quite evident that it was Jesus who was pierced and called Jehovah from this complete chapter

Did John get it wrong?

37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

Funny thing how some manuscripts have it exactly as John quotes it.
 

101G

Well-known member
The Prophet is correct,

John 19:33 "But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:" John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water." John 19:35 "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe." John 19:36 "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken." John 19:37 "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

psalms and Zechariah are quoted correctly,

PICJAG,
101G.
 

101G

Well-known member
So then John quoted Zechariah 12:10 correctly and that passage he quoted does not say "they shall look upon ME whom they pierced."
yes just as he quoted correctly, Isaiah 6, John 12:41 "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." that's the Lord Jesus.

PICJAG,
101G.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
yes just as he quoted correctly, Isaiah 6, John 12:41 "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." that's the Lord Jesus.

PICJAG,
101G.

Your response is rather incoherent. Did John correctly quote Zechariah 12:10 nor not?
 

101G

Well-known member
Your response is rather incoherent. Did John correctly quote Zechariah 12:10 nor not?
John 19:36 "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken."John 19:37 "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

PICJAG,
101G.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
John 19:36 "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken."John 19:37 "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

PICJAG,
101G.

What does that bolded red word say up there?

Then tell us what Zechariah 12:10 says.
 

101G

Well-known member
What does that bolded red word say up there?

Then tell us what Zechariah 12:10 says.
Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

and "ME" here inZechariah 12:10 is "HIM" in John 19:37....... 😎.

PICJAG,
101G.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

and "ME" here inZechariah 12:10 is "HIM" in John 19:37....... 😎.

PICJAG,
101G.

So then according to you, John incorrectly quoted Zechariah 12:10.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
ERROR on your Part, I hope you can in the future used scriptures to back up you false claims,

PICJAG,
101G.

So you acknowledge John says one thing but Zechariah another thing yet claim they both say the same thing.

Do you also actually expect people to think you have a rational argument?
 

101G

Well-known member
So you acknowledge John says one thing but Zechariah another thing yet claim they both say the same thing.

Do you also actually expect people to think you have a rational argument?
no, have i not spoken?

now, Listen to me carefully, if you just want to talk, this is what facebook and twitter are for. but if you want to discuss the Word of God, then stay up to the topic... ok.

one more time, ALL HANDS ON DECK, THIS IS THE CAPTAIN SPEAKING, NOW HEAR THIS, "John is quoting Zechariah 12:10."

PICJAG,
101G
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
no, have i not spoken?

now, Listen to me carefully, if you just want to talk, this is what facebook and twitter are for. but if you want to discuss the Word of God, then stay up to the topic... ok.

one more time, ALL HANDS ON DECK, THIS IS THE CAPTAIN SPEAKING, NOW HEAR THIS, "John is quoting Zechariah 12:10."

PICJAG,
101G

You also seem to quite enjoy deluding yourself with your own fantasies.

Quite the spectacle.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
no, have i not spoken?

now, Listen to me carefully, if you just want to talk, this is what facebook and twitter are for. but if you want to discuss the Word of God, then stay up to the topic... ok.

one more time, ALL HANDS ON DECK, THIS IS THE CAPTAIN SPEAKING, NOW HEAR THIS, "John is quoting Zechariah 12:10."

PICJAG,
101G
Yes he was, just not your manuscript.

Post in thread 'Zechariah 12:10?'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/zechariah-12-10.4086/post-268245

If you don't agree, respond to this link in the languages section.
 

imJRR

Active member
The Bible says Paradise is in the third heaven or where God dwells:



1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day



2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3



3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2



This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven



2 Corth 12:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22
1: And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

REV 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere Rakia to a Jew


“The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.” (Genesis 8:2)

“Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce....”(Deuteronomy 11:17)

“The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.” (Deuteronomy 28:12)

"O LORD, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.” (Judges 5:4)

“When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you …” (1 Kings 8:35)

"Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons...” (Acts 14:17)


The Second Heaven: Outer Space shamayim to a Jew

“Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” (Genesis 15:5)

“In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun... It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other...” (Psalm 19:4, 6)

“They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served....” (Jeremiah 8:2)

“The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.” (Isaiah 13:10)


The Third Heaven: God's Dwelling Place shemi Hashamayim to a Jew


“To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.” (Deuteronomy 10:14)

“… and their prayer came up to His holy dwelling place, to heaven.” (2 Chronicles 30:27)

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.” (1 Kings 8:27)

(phrase repeated numerous times in following verses) “then hear from heaven, your dwelling place...” (1 Kings 8:30)

“The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them.” (Psalm 2:4)

“Unto you I lift up my eyes, O You who dwell in the heavens.” (Psalm 123:1)

“In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16)

And I might add, he beginning of the Lord's prayer, "Our Father, Who art IN HEAVEN..."


the word “Paradise” (Gk. paradeisos) clearly means “heaven.” In 2 Cor. 12:4 it is the place to which Paul was caught up in his revelation of heaven, and in Rev. 2:7 it is the place where we find the tree of life—which is clearly heaven in Rev. 22:2, 14.

Grudem, Wayne A.. Bible Doctrine (p. 258). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

Okay. Now, then - Clarification Request: Could you please explain how this post and your original post relate to JW belief and teaching?

What JW beliefs and teachings does what you've written in the two posts address? Please try to be specific in answering. Thank you.
 

101G

Well-known member
Yes he was, just not your manuscript.

Post in thread 'Zechariah 12:10?'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/zechariah-12-10.4086/post-268245

If you don't agree, respond to this link in the languages section.
thanks for the reply, second, John quoted from two OT passages, listen to John when he wasid, John 19:37 "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

ANOTHER SCRIPTURE? yes the First one concering his bones verse 37 before, and this is recorded in Psalms 34:20 "He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken."

now the ANOTHER scripture is from where he JESUS, the LORD said, "they pierced him". and this is from Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

so John is correct.

PICJAG,
101G.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
thanks for the reply, second, John quoted from two OT passages, listen to John when he wasid, John 19:37 "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

ANOTHER SCRIPTURE? yes the First one concering his bones verse 37 before, and this is recorded in Psalms 34:20 "He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken."

now the ANOTHER scripture is from where he JESUS, the LORD said, "they pierced him". and this is from Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

so John is correct.

PICJAG,
101G.
More defensibly, the "another scripture" is the Hebrew variant that John actually quotes without the "me."
 
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