Jesus IS God - The evidence from ferengi

The Pixie

Active member
ferengi demands evidence from others whilst refusing to do so herself so often that I was amazed to see she had started a thread actually giving evidence for her beliefs. Unfortunately, it is in a forum I, as an atheist, am not allowed to post in, so I thought it would be helpful to present some of it here. I have added a few comments in blue.

Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

As usual, all this evidence is based on the circular argument:
  • The Bible is true
  • Therefore, the Bible is true

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

These verses are God saying there is only him, not anything about Jesus.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"

In both these, ferengi has added the "YHWH" herself; the verses do not really say that.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John was written some 60 to 90 years after Jesus died. Ideas changed a lot in that time, and certainly by then there was a belief Jesus was God or a part of God, albeit subordinate to the Father. However, that was not the belief of the authors of the earlier gospels or of Paul. Revelations, Titus, 2 Peter and 1 John are similarly late.

That does not make them necessarily wrong, but we haver to wonder why they are at odds with the texts written closer to Jesus' own lifetime.


John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

NASB gives a slightly different view: "whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen." In their translation Jesus is not God, but rather is blessed by God.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus

Two people: (1) our great God; and (2) Savior Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.


2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.

I agree it is the Son of Man who is coming in the clouds, and this fits with the imagery in Daniel. But this was the messiah, the man appointed by God to be the king of the Jews, and who would usher in the kingdom of God.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Conclusion
: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
 

Torin

Member
If we extend a bit of undeserved charity to ferengi, his argument is not circular so much as he's appealing to a premise he shares with most other Christians (i.e., that the Bible is an accurate record of the magical events it describes). His audience in whatever forum you're referring to is presumably other Christians for the most part.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Is she arguing:
(a) the Bible presents Jesus as God (however that might be understood); or
(b) Jesus is God and the Bible is one kind of evidence for this?
 

Septextura

Active member
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
 

The Pixie

Active member
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
So you think Jesus is the "everlasting Father"?

A more likely explanation is this is about King Hezekiah, child of King Ahaz. Isaiah is saying the child is already born, and he will become king. The names are celebrating God, not saying the child ill be the everlasting Father (compare to Joel, which means Jehovah is God; that is not indicating that the prophet Joel was either Jehovah or God).
 

The Pixie

Active member
If we extend a bit of undeserved charity to ferengi, his argument is not circular so much as he's appealing to a premise he shares with most other Christians (i.e., that the Bible is an accurate record of the magical events it describes). His audience in whatever forum you're referring to is presumably other Christians for the most part.
It was in the apologetic forum. That is kind of the point here. Apologetics is about proving the Bible is true by appealing only to people who already share that premise.
 

docphin5

Member
My prediction: this is going to be a fruitless exercise because at the end of sharing "evidence" (biblical verses) for this or "evidence" (biblical verses) for that, the religious person is going to choose what he/she WANTS to believe. I spent years in the religious forums and ultimately the Bible can be made to say whatever one wants it to say so people believe whatever they want to believe.

At least in the secular forums half the people accept a reality as true and supported by actual repeatable truth (via science). It is a starting point.

In the religious forums there is no starting point nor an ending point just a circle going round and round, like a Merry-Go-Round, and people get off where their family is standing, depending upon which sect of Christianity they affiliate with.

I like these verses because they tell us that in order to discover hidden truth one must believe the truth in front of them. Secular forums do just that. Half of us accept the reality in front of us as true. The other half deny evolution, and believe superstitions as historical events.

If you will believe it, "Jesus" is telling us that SCIENCE is the starting point to unravel the enigmas or mysteries which religion deals in. We must have a foundation that we all agree is true before delving into things hidden.

Gospel of Thomas: "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

(John 3:12): I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world ["earthly things"] through observation and experiment.
 
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5wize

Active member
Is she arguing:
(a) the Bible presents Jesus as God (however that might be understood); or
(b) Jesus is God and the Bible is one kind of evidence for this?
I think you have it. She's posting in the echo chamber that already believes that the bible is the unmistakable word of God. Nothing to see here... except how weak God's message about himself is that such exegesis is even required.
 
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Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
If we extend a bit of undeserved charity to ferengi, his argument is not circular so much as he's appealing to a premise he shares with most other Christians (i.e., that the Bible is an accurate record of the magical events it describes). His audience in whatever forum you're referring to is presumably other Christians for the most part.
Why do atheist professors train people to lie about the Bible?

And have never been able to disprove a single miracle. Do you know why?
 

5wize

Active member
Why do atheist professors train people to lie about the Bible?

And have never been able to disprove a single miracle. Do you know why?
I'm floating on my couch replying to this. I have just documented the event in CARM.

Now do you know why we have never been able to disprove a single miracle?
 
Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

As usual, all this evidence is based on the circular argument:
  • The Bible is true
  • Therefore, the Bible is true
I agree. This conversation never gets past step one. Someone says, "this book is the word of God." We ask for proof. And that is where it stops. They never can prove that their book - be it The Bible, the Koran, The Book of Mormon, The Vedas, etc. - is from god.

So we can picture a crowd of a thousand people, each holds their own book on high, and they each claim their book is from god. The Bible is just one book in a thousand. Each person rejects all the other books around them for no discernable reason. None can prove theirs is real.

It is an interesting psychological experiment on how humans can believe in things without evidence, how we can reject other ideas that we just do not like (i.e. cognitive bias), and the general human condition.

But when someone claims their book is from God is useless in figuring out anything about how the universe works, where everything came from, or reality in general.

But it is interesting to watch people claim to have evidence for their belief when they have none :)
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I think you have it. She's posting in the echo chamber that already believes that the bible is the unmistakable word of God. Nothing to see here... except how weak God's message about himself is that such exegesis is even required.
I think it's a mistake to argue for Christ's divinity with people who don't believe in God (since the second obviously contradicts the first). Even if the Bible has errors, it could still be used as evidence in an argument attempting to demonstrate Christ's divinity.
 

5wize

Active member
I think it's a mistake to argue for Christ's divinity with people who don't believe in God (since the second obviously contradicts the first). Even if the Bible has errors, it could still be used as evidence in an argument attempting to demonstrate Christ's divinity.
Maybe so, but Ferengi's post has buried the headline. The real take away from the post is the need for exegesis to explain an all powerful and present god even to His own advocates. It pits our obtuseness against God's power and presence... and our obtuseness wins? Not good for team theism.
 
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bigthinker

Active member
ferengi demands evidence from others whilst refusing to do so herself
Ferengi is a female?!
I think it's a mistake to argue for Christ's divinity with people who don't believe in God (since the second obviously contradicts the first). Even if the Bible has errors,
Not necessarily but you'd first have to make a case for the existence of Christ. To be honest, demonstrating the existing of Christ would go a long way in making a case for Christ's divinity.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Maybe so, but Ferengi's post has buried the headline. The real take away from the post is the need for exegesis to explain an all powerful and present god even to His own advocates. It pits our obtuseness against God's power and presence... and our obtuseness wins? Not good for team theism.
I thought the post was about Jesus being divine not the existence of God? I'm not sure what Ferengi's position is but generally theists will hold that you don't need a religious text to know that God exists.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Not necessarily but you'd first have to make a case for the existence of Christ. To be honest, demonstrating the existing of Christ would go a long way in making a case for Christ's divinity.
Do you mean the existence of Jesus? That's pretty much a non-issue with historians and theologians. Only those on the fringes would question this existence of the historical Jesus.
 

5wize

Active member
I thought the post was about Jesus being divine not the existence of God? I'm not sure what Ferengi's position is but generally theists will hold that you don't need a religious text to know that God exists.
Yes, but who is the post directed to? Me? An atheist? No! It is directed to other theists that should have no less a direct vision and truth of the the divine manifestation of their God than he feels some necessity to correct. It's a lose - lose situation for theism no matter what side of Ferengi's argument you find yourself on.
 

bigthinker

Active member
Do you mean the existence of Jesus? That's pretty much a non-issue with historians and theologians. Only those on the fringes would question this existence of the historical Jesus.
No, I'm not talking about a historical Jesus -which I see as largely irrelevant to the present day believer's claim of a personal relationship with Jesus.
I'm talking about present day Jesus.
 
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