Jesus IS God - The evidence

ferengi

Active member
Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.


2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


Conclusion
: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
 

Kris Jordan

Member
Yes, you are correct.

Jesus Christ is one member of the Trinity, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is eternal, immutable, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, self-existent, and self-sufficient. He also received and accepted worship, forgives sin, is the Father’s one and only Son, and is “the First and the Last” of the Old and New Testaments.

Jesus was with the Father “in the beginning.” Everything in creation was made through Him, and without Him, the universe and everything in it would not exist. Subsequently, Jesus became a human being when He left the glory of heaven to be born on the earth. As a man, Jesus never ceased being divine at any time. He was and is the full image and expression of God in human form. In other words, Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh.

Jesus is God’s “only begotten Son.” This classification is significant because it sets Jesus apart as the one and only Son of God, as opposed to believers who are God’s sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). The Greek word for the phrase “only begotten Son” is the word “monogenes,” which has two primary definitions. The first pertains to the only one of its kind or class (“single of its kind, only” — Strong’s Greek Lexicon). The second conveys the only one of its kind with regard to their parents (“used of only sons or daughters, viewed in relation to their parents” — Strong’s Greek Lexicon). Therefore, as the only begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus did not become God’s Son at His human inception. He is uniquely and eternally the Son who descended from heaven (John 3:13b) to be born on the earth as God manifested in the flesh. This is why, during His baptism and transfiguration, the Father spoke from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.”

Another undeniable, straightforward, and irrefutable proclamation by the Father about Jesus’ divinity is found in Hebrews 1:8. He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.” If God the Father calls Jesus “God,” how can anyone else claim otherwise?

One more of the Father’s affirmations that Jesus is God occurred at Jesus’ birth when God commanded the angels to worship Him (Hebrews 1:6). This is a compelling declaration because, before Jesus’ birth, God the Father stated in the Ten Commandments, “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:3-5a). Therefore, by commanding the angels to worship Jesus, God the Father is explicitly and unequivocally confirming that Jesus is God, and, therefore, rightfully worthy of worship.

Additionally, when Jesus was worshiped by others, He did not stop them from doing so like mere men and angels rightly did when others attempted to worship them (Acts 10:25; Acts 14:11-15; Revelation 19:9-10). Neither was Jesus struck dead after accepting worship as Herod was, who was eaten by worms after allowing the people to exclaim his voice was the voice of a God and not a man (Acts 12:21-23). As God, Jesus is entitled to receive worship; therefore, He did not prohibit these individuals from exalting Him nor offend the Father by accepting their praise. Jesus allowed these people to glorify Him as God through their worship and adoration. If He were not divine but merely human in origin, He would have sinned by allowing this behavior, which would contradict multiple verses establishing Jesus’ sinlessness.

Another irrefutable fact that substantiates Jesus’ deity is found in the books of Isaiah and Revelation concerning the title, “the First and the Last.” In the Old Testament book of Isaiah, the title “the First and the Last” strictly refers to Jehovah God, the LORD, who declares that, apart from Him, there is no God. In the New Testament book of Revelation, “the First and the Last” spoke to John while John was exiled on the island of Patmos. His exact words to John were, “I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen” (Revelation 1:17-18). This statement is a direct reference to Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was raised to life again. Therefore, “the First and the Last” of the Old Testament is specifically identified as Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
 

ferengi

Active member
Yes, you are correct.

Jesus Christ is one member of the Trinity, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is eternal, immutable, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, self-existent, and self-sufficient. He also received and accepted worship, forgives sin, is the Father’s one and only Son, and is “the First and the Last” of the Old and New Testaments.

Jesus was with the Father “in the beginning.” Everything in creation was made through Him, and without Him, the universe and everything in it would not exist. Subsequently, Jesus became a human being when He left the glory of heaven to be born on the earth. As a man, Jesus never ceased being divine at any time. He was and is the full image and expression of God in human form. In other words, Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh.

Jesus is God’s “only begotten Son.” This classification is significant because it sets Jesus apart as the one and only Son of God, as opposed to believers who are God’s sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). The Greek word for the phrase “only begotten Son” is the word “monogenes,” which has two primary definitions. The first pertains to the only one of its kind or class (“single of its kind, only” — Strong’s Greek Lexicon). The second conveys the only one of its kind with regard to their parents (“used of only sons or daughters, viewed in relation to their parents” — Strong’s Greek Lexicon). Therefore, as the only begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus did not become God’s Son at His human inception. He is uniquely and eternally the Son who descended from heaven (John 3:13b) to be born on the earth as God manifested in the flesh. This is why, during His baptism and transfiguration, the Father spoke from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.”

Another undeniable, straightforward, and irrefutable proclamation by the Father about Jesus’ divinity is found in Hebrews 1:8. He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.” If God the Father calls Jesus “God,” how can anyone else claim otherwise?

One more of the Father’s affirmations that Jesus is God occurred at Jesus’ birth when God commanded the angels to worship Him (Hebrews 1:6). This is a compelling declaration because, before Jesus’ birth, God the Father stated in the Ten Commandments, “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:3-5a). Therefore, by commanding the angels to worship Jesus, God the Father is explicitly and unequivocally confirming that Jesus is God, and, therefore, rightfully worthy of worship.

Additionally, when Jesus was worshiped by others, He did not stop them from doing so like mere men and angels rightly did when others attempted to worship them (Acts 10:25; Acts 14:11-15; Revelation 19:9-10). Neither was Jesus struck dead after accepting worship as Herod was, who was eaten by worms after allowing the people to exclaim his voice was the voice of a God and not a man (Acts 12:21-23). As God, Jesus is entitled to receive worship; therefore, He did not prohibit these individuals from exalting Him nor offend the Father by accepting their praise. Jesus allowed these people to glorify Him as God through their worship and adoration. If He were not divine but merely human in origin, He would have sinned by allowing this behavior, which would contradict multiple verses establishing Jesus’ sinlessness.

Another irrefutable fact that substantiates Jesus’ deity is found in the books of Isaiah and Revelation concerning the title, “the First and the Last.” In the Old Testament book of Isaiah, the title “the First and the Last” strictly refers to Jehovah God, the LORD, who declares that, apart from Him, there is no God. In the New Testament book of Revelation, “the First and the Last” spoke to John while John was exiled on the island of Patmos. His exact words to John were, “I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen” (Revelation 1:17-18). This statement is a direct reference to Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was raised to life again. Therefore, “the First and the Last” of the Old Testament is specifically identified as Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
I am glad to see you know hermeneutics - Nice job with Strongs Concordance
 

Stephen

Active member
Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

The OP takes the position that the relationship of Jesus to God is that Jesus is God. I will take a view that precludes the idea that Jesus is God, I take the view that Jesus is the son of God. Since these two positions are mutually exclusive, the evidence will have to be evaluated with a critical eye by the readers.

As for making my case regarding the relationship between God and Jesus, I will simply offer the following conversation between Peter and Jesus (there are multitudes more but one is sufficient):

Matthew 16:15 Jesus said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Jesus asks who do you say I am, Peter answers that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus affirms that Peter is indeed correct, and Christ goes the extra mile and makes it absolutely plain that his father (God) is the one that revealed it to Peter.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to evaluate the evidence provided that Jesus is God.

First, as as an introduction on the OPs method of exposition. The "proof" presentation is is a classic example of a Gish Gallop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop). We are presented with a series of many single verses, presented with no surrounding context, little exposition, and it is simply asserted that they somehow support the claim.

Let's read the various passages and corresponding exposition (or lack thereof) and evaluate them to see if they actually support the claims in the OP.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

And here, two verses are shown where YWHW identifies himself as a single person with the usage of the words "I" and "me". Which means YHWH is not two or more persons. And he even more forcefully stated there is no other God besides this one single person.

These verses provide no information in either direction as to whether you should believe Jesus is God, or whether Jesus is the son of God, but are interesting anyway, as they affirm this singular fact: God is one person.

Side note: If you ever needed a direct refutation of the Trinity by YHWH himself, then these two verses are it. YHWH claims that one single person is God in direct contradiction to the doctrine of the trinity which claims God is three persons. YHWH further emphasizes that there are no others.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"

Here the OP adds the word "YHWH" to the text and bolds it. The word YHWH isn't there in the Greek. If we accept his addition, the text does indeed say "I am YHWH" and therefore supposedly the bible says something to the effect that "Jesus is YHWH". An intelligent reader will simply note that if the word YHWH is not in the text, then the bible doesn't say Jesus is YHWH.

As to the difference between our positions, if we accept the OP's addition to the text, then we indeed the bible does affirm that Jesus is God. However, I reject the idea of adding text to the bible.

Presumably the OP wishes Jesus's statement of "ego eimi" here to mean that Jesus claimed to be YHWH, but in the next chapter the blind man makes the same statement and I doubt the OP thinks the blind man is YHWH. If the OP wishes to claim that Jesus saying "ego eimi" is a claim to being YHWH (if there is no hypocrisy), then so also when the blind man says "ego eimi" he is also claiming to be YHWH.

If you go to the LXX to Exodus 3 which is where I presume the OP wants to go, in the place where the angel tells Moses "the I AM has sent you" (Exodus 3:14), the Greek words for "I AM" are "ho wn", not the words "ego eimi".

It will be up to the reader to decide if the OP's addition to the text is persuasive enough to believe that Jesus is God, versus the position that Jesus is the son of God.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now we see the distinction between the poster's position and my position. The poster wants to identify "the Word" with the person "God" (if I read him correctly). Whereas I would not identify "the Word" with the person God, and I would identify Jesus being the image of his father, or more more specifically "the image of God" as the man and woman are in Genesis 1.

If we look into commentaries on the Greek translation, or even bible foot notes, for example the NET Bible notes, to see if "the Word" is identified with the person "God".

NET Bible Commentary (https://netbible.org/bible/John+1)​
The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.

It will be up to the reader to do their homework to decide if the bible means "the word" is "the person God", or the competing idea that Jesus is one with God in essence, which precludes him from being God.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

I presume the OP wants to present Thomas as denying that Christ's Father is Thomas's God, but rather the alternative position that Jesus is Thomas's God. This passage apart from the context appears to affirm the OPs position, that Jesus is the God of Thomas, and and therefore God.

I will simply offer that this is not what John wanted you to take away from his gospel. John stated directly what he wants you to take away from his Gospel which explicitely affirms my position just a few verses later:

30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

The reader will have to decide, does John intend to convey in the Book of John that Jesus is God, or does he intend to convey that Jesus is the son of God?

Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

On the face of it, we have a singular verse outside of its context, the verse does appear to affirm the OPs position that Jesus is God rather than the son of God.

However, note the verse isn't consistently translated from translation to translation. For example:
  • King James 2000 Bible - Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
  • American King James Version - Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
  • American Standard Version - who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

When you compare the translations, you can see that with the placement of a comma (which isn't in the Greek), you can collapse God and Jesus to a single person (supporting the OP's claim) versus Jesus and God being separate persons (supporting my position).

The introduction to the book being cited by the OP (Romans) presents a much clearer declaration of the relationship of God to Jesus:

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

The reader will have to decide, does Paul intend to convey in the Book of Romans that Jesus is God, or does he intend to convey that Jesus is the son of God? Does the introduction outweigh the location of the comma (which isn't in the Greek)?






(Split due to 10K character limit)
 

ferengi

Active member
Matthew 16:15 Jesus said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Jesus asks who do you say I am, Peter answers that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus affirms that Peter is indeed correct, and Christ goes the extra mile and makes it absolutely plain that his father (God) is the one that revealed it to Peter.
First error - no evidence is given that Jesus is not god.
The poster superimposes his false assumption on the scripture instead of drawing the conclusion FROM scripture.
 

Stephen

Active member
Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus

Here, we have much the same story as the previous passage.

We have a singular verse outside of its context, the verse does appear to affirm the OPs position that Jesus is God rather than the son of God. And again, translations differ. With the placement of a comma (which isn't in the Greek), you can make Jesus and God the same person, rather than God and Jesus being two separate persons.
  • King James 2000 Bible - appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
  • American King James Version - appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
  • American Standard Version - appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

It would be up to the reader to evaluate is the placement of a comma in the English is sufficient evidence to support the idea the Jesus and God are the same person, versus Jesus and God being two separate persons.

Note The rest of the book of Titus identifies Jesus as one person and God as his father.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Here, we have much the same story as previous.

We have a singular verse outside of its context, the verse does appear to affirm the OPs position that Jesus is God rather than the son of God.

However, the word "God" isn't there in the Greek. (https://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/3-16.htm). The various translations of the verse show the differences (https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/3-16.htm)

With the addition a word to the bible (which isn't in the Greek), you can make Jesus manifest God in the flesh. This would support the idea that Jesus and God are the same person, rather than Jesus being the son of God.

It would be up to the reader to evaluate if adding words to the bible is sufficient evidence to support the idea the Jesus and God are the same person, versus Jesus and God being two separate persons.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Here, another singular verse is presented outside of its context. The verse is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, a wedding song, where a handsome king is marrying a beautiful bride. Looking at any readily available bible notes on the verses in Psalm 45:


sn O God. The king is clearly the addressee here, as in vv. 2-5 and 7-9. Rather than taking the statement at face value, many prefer to emend the text because the concept of deifying the earthly king is foreign to ancient Israelite thinking (cf. NEB “your throne is like God’s throne, eternal”). However, it is preferable to retain the text and take this statement as another instance of the royal hyperbole that permeates the royal psalms. Because the Davidic king is God’s vice-regent on earth, the psalmist addresses him as if he were God incarnate.


It would be up to the reader to decide if a love song applied to one of the kings of Israel on his wedding day applied to Christ is sufficient evidence to support the idea that Jesus is God (yet doesn't make the handsome king God) versus the idea that Jesus is the son of God.

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Here, another singular verse is presented outside of its context. This is a quotation of Psalm 102:5-27 where the Psalmists appeals to the creator. I presume that we are to imagine that the word "Lord" applies to Christ, but note that it doesn't actually say that.

I don't know what this singular verse removed from its context is supposed to be evidence for, but it is provided here for an unknown reason as it has no relationship to the idea that Jesus is God.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

We have a singular verse outside of its context, the verse does appear to affirm the OPs position that Jesus is God rather than the son of God. Note that throughout the entire book of 2 Peter, the author describes Jesus as one person and God as another person, yet we are to take this single verse as evidence that God and Jesus are the same person.

However note the translational variability
  • King James 2000 Bible - the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
  • American King James Version - righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
  • American Standard Version - righteousness of our God and saviour Jesus Christ:
With the movement of the word "our" Jesus and God can be made to be the same person. However, it appears that translators disagree on its proper location.

It would be up to the reader to evaluate if this is sufficient evidence to support the idea the Jesus and God are the same person, versus Jesus and God being two separate persons.

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

We have a singular verse outside of its context, that doesn't even affirm the OPs position.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Here we have another singular verse outside of its context, that says Jesus is God's son. It actually denies the OPs position yet is presented as affirming it. Read the verse, the pronoun "he", "his", "him" refer to God.

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him (God) who is true. And we are in him (God) who is true even in His (God's) Son Jesus Christ. He (God) is the true God and eternal life.
 
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Stephen

Active member
These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

And yet again, we have a snippet of scripture outside of its context, that doesn't even affirm the OPs position yet is presented as doing so. In the first verse of the book the author identifies Jesus, and God as separate persons:

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

When we get to verse 7, we should read it with the context of verse 1 in mind.

7 Behold, he (Jesus) is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him (Jesus), even those who pierced him (Jesus), and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him (Jesus). Even so. Amen. < - - - Note the closure of the thought

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (God is now speaking)

We are presented with a verse that directly contradicts the OP's position and yet it is presented as somehow evidence for his position.

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Here, we see the use of two verses (an improvement) and some exposition (another improvement). The verses they are presented presumably to show that Jesus bears a title that God bears, and therefore Jesus is God and further, it we must therefore exclude the possibility that Jesus is the son of God and bears a title that his father bears.

This is akin claiming Solomon is YHWH because he sat on YHWH's throne (1 Chron 29:23) and was the king of Israel, and YWHW was the king of Israel (Isaiah 44:6).

It will be up to the reader to determine that if two identities bear the same title:
  • Does this mean that they are the same person and therefore Jesus is God?
  • Does this mean that two persons can bear the same title and not be the same person, like David, king of Israel, and Solomon son of David, king of Israel.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Here we have a selection of verses from the end of Revelation, with a few notable missing verses. The verses presented presumably to show that Jesus bears a title that God bears, and therefore Jesus is God. And this must therefore exclude the possibility that a title can be born by both father and son.

This argument was addressed with the previous selection of verses, but I want to point out that the verses that are excluded from the citations that tell a different story from the OP's story. Let's look at verses 18-19:

18 I (Jesus) warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

God and Jesus are two different people in this passage, yet the OP wants presents the passage in Rev 22 as showing Jesus and God are the same person.

It will be up to the reader to determine if the evidence shows that Jesus is God, or if it shows that Jesus and God are separate persons.

Conclusion
So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!

Conclusion: The method of exposition used in the OP can be used to "prove" all sorts of ridiculous things. If a person set their mind to it, they could prove this "Satan" character is YHWH (compare 1 Chronicles 21:1 with 2 Samuel 24:1) and other equally nonsensical positions. Note a few things about the method of "proof", all short passages, none of the passages directly state the OP's intent, the passages cited aren't even speaking of the same subject, they are all on the thinnest possible ground, and the OP offers very little by way of exposition.

This Gish Gallop, like most Gish Gallops, should be dismissed out of hand. The author simply wishes to overwhelm an uncritical audience with specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations about scripture. When each of the claims is investigated closely, they are found to be empty. It is a symptom of a weak position. If this was a sound biblical teaching, this sort of "proof" wouldn't be necessary.
 
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Stephen

Active member
First error - no evidence is given that Jesus is not god.
The poster superimposes his false assumption on the scripture instead of drawing the conclusion FROM scripture.

I'm sorry you made the mistake of thinking that it is up to me to prove. You are the one who asserted a doctrine that you claim is from scripture, it is up to you to prove.

Which assumption is false?



Second error - childish ad hominem attacks instead of evidence.

I'm sorry you made the mistake of thinking that me asserting that your argument is a Gish Gallop is somehow an attack on your person. If you can't tell the difference between you and your argument, then I don't know how to help you.
 

Redeemed

Active member
Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.


2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


Conclusion
: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!

I'm going with Jesus is God, He is God the Son. He is the God man. I'm sure there has to be a doctrine on it somewhere. There are a lot of Scriptures clearly asserting the deity of Jesus and there's also a lot clearly asserting his humanity. But please note that Scripture also clearly teaches the subordination of Jesus to His Father. Jesus made that clear in John 14:28 "my father is greater than I".

He actually said that He had received His message from the Father. He said, ‘I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him’ (John 8:26); and He continued, ‘I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things’. ‘The words that I speak unto you,’ He told His disciples, ‘I speak not of myself’ (John 14:10). His words were given to Him by His Father.

He said the same about the works that He did. ‘The Father that lives in me, he does the works’—John 14:10 again. His words and His works were all given to Him by the Father, and what He did, He did because the Father had given Him this work to do. You will find it again in John 17:4: ‘I have finished the work which you gave me to do.’

He said that His kingdom, had been appointed to Him by the Father: ‘And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father has appointed unto me’ (Luke 22:29).

0h...and lastly in 1 Corinthians 11:3 there is a most important statement to the effect that God the Father is the head of Christ: ‘But I would have you know,’ says Paul, ‘that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.’ You notice the sequence and the argument. The man is the head of the woman, Christ is the head of the man and God is the head of Christ. It's that Trinity thing.


That's my take on it.​
 

ferengi

Active member
I'm going with Jesus is God, He is God the Son. He is the God man. I'm sure there has to be a doctrine on it somewhere. There are a lot of Scriptures clearly asserting the deity of Jesus and there's also a lot clearly asserting his humanity. But please note that Scripture also clearly teaches the subordination of Jesus to His Father. Jesus made that clear in John 14:28 "my father is greater than I".

He actually said that He had received His message from the Father. He said, ‘I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him’ (John 8:26); and He continued, ‘I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things’. ‘The words that I speak unto you,’ He told His disciples, ‘I speak not of myself’ (John 14:10). His words were given to Him by His Father.

He said the same about the works that He did. ‘The Father that lives in me, he does the works’—John 14:10 again. His words and His works were all given to Him by the Father, and what He did, He did because the Father had given Him this work to do. You will find it again in John 17:4: ‘I have finished the work which you gave me to do.’

He said that His kingdom, had been appointed to Him by the Father: ‘And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father has appointed unto me’ (Luke 22:29).

0h...and lastly in 1 Corinthians 11:3 there is a most important statement to the effect that God the Father is the head of Christ: ‘But I would have you know,’ says Paul, ‘that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.’ You notice the sequence and the argument. The man is the head of the woman, Christ is the head of the man and God is the head of Christ. It's that Trinity thing.


That's my take on it.​
you are wise
 

Stephen

Active member
I'm going with Jesus is God, He is God the Son. He is the God man. I'm sure there has to be a doctrine on it somewhere. There are a lot of Scriptures clearly asserting the deity of Jesus and there's also a lot clearly asserting his humanity. But please note that Scripture also clearly teaches the subordination of Jesus to His Father. Jesus made that clear in John 14:28 "my father is greater than I".

If there were scriptures clearly asserting the deity of Jesus, you would have posted them.

He actually said that He had received His message from the Father. He said, ‘I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him’ (John 8:26); and He continued, ‘I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things’. ‘The words that I speak unto you,’ He told His disciples, ‘I speak not of myself’ (John 14:10). His words were given to Him by His Father.

Yes this is true. He did get his message from his God.

He said the same about the works that He did. ‘The Father that lives in me, he does the works’—John 14:10 again. His words and His works were all given to Him by the Father, and what He did, He did because the Father had given Him this work to do. You will find it again in John 17:4: ‘I have finished the work which you gave me to do.’

Yes this is true. Christ's God does the works through him.

He said that His kingdom, had been appointed to Him by the Father: ‘And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father has appointed unto me’ (Luke 22:29).

Yes, this is true. Christ had to be given a kingdom. This directly contradicts the idea that he is God. If he were God he wouldn't have to be given the kingdom.

0h...and lastly in 1 Corinthians 11:3 there is a most important statement to the effect that God the Father is the head of Christ: ‘But I would have you know,’ says Paul, ‘that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.’ You notice the sequence and the argument. The man is the head of the woman, Christ is the head of the man and God is the head of Christ. It's that Trinity thing.

Read your own post slowly and with reading comprehension.
  • The head of the woman is man (the man is not the woman)
  • The head of every man is Christ (the man is not Christ)
  • The head of Christ is God. (Christ is not God)

What you posted has nothing to do with the "trinity thing" as the "trinity thing" is regarding three co-equal persons not 4 unequal identities.

That's my take on it.

Yes, this is true.
 
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Gary Mac

Member
Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.


2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


Conclusion
: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
The One who comes is the same One who came to Jesius in Matt 3:16 for it is He who will come and open all of His heaven to you and said would come and sup with you and be in you. Same One who came to Adam where he became like Him to know this difference, same One who came to Abraham, same One who came to Moses, same One who came to Mary, same One who came to jesus, same One who came to 120 in an upper room and is the same One who will come to you but becuase you seek another -- the One who came to all of these is the one you are missing this day to come. .
 

civic

Active member
We have a singular verse outside of its context, the verse does appear to affirm the OPs position that Jesus is God rather than the son of God. Note that throughout the entire book of 2 Peter, the author describes Jesus as one person and God as another person, yet we are to take this single verse as evidence that God and Jesus are the same person.

However note the translational variability
  • King James 2000 Bible - the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
  • American King James Version - righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
  • American Standard Version - righteousness of our God and saviour Jesus Christ:
With the movement of the word "our" Jesus and God can be made to be the same person. However, it appears that translators disagree on its proper location.

It would be up to the reader to evaluate if this is sufficient evidence to support the idea the Jesus and God are the same person, versus Jesus and God being two separate persons.
2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ
is the same.
Σωτῆρος
is the same.
Ἰησοῦ
is the same.
Χριστοῦ·
is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if he wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise he's being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!
 

Stephen

Active member
We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle.

Yes you are correct in the case that if you wish to selectively apply the 6 rules of Greek grammar invented in the 1800s and imposed on a 1st century text by Granville Sharp, who invented the rules with the specific intent to make several verses say that Jesus is God in the KJV because the translators got it wrong.

However, one must consider that of the six rules, five of the rules were determined to be invalid even by the "Jesus is God" believers. And further, the last remaining rule was re-written in the 1990s and renamed the "Sharper Rule" because it too was determined to be lacking.

So yes, if the person evaluating the evidence could give weight to the wishful thinking of the "Jesus is God" believing translators, then they might find the one singular case in one singular verse, where the bible identifies Jesus as God, within a book that clearly identifies Jesus as one person, and God as another person, a fact which is consistent in all of the other text written or spoken by the author (Peter).

A critical thinker would think to themselves, "perhaps the rule is garbage and the 1st century Greek speaking Roman Empire wasn't bound by Granville Sharp's rule". It appears that even the "Jesus is God" believing translators are 5/6 of the way there on their own and are desperately clinging to the last bits lest their doctrine be jeopardized.



(I presume this is your way of saying I was correct in every other part of my evaluation, and I'll say thanks).
 

civic

Active member
Yes you are correct in the case that if you wish to selectively apply the 6 rules of Greek grammar invented in the 1800s and imposed on a 1st century text by Granville Sharp, who invented the rules with the specific intent to make several verses say that Jesus is God in the KJV because the translators got it wrong.

However, one must consider that of the six rules, five of the rules were determined to be invalid even by the "Jesus is God" believers. And further, the last remaining rule was re-written in the 1990s and renamed the "Sharper Rule" because it too was determined to be lacking.

So yes, if the person evaluating the evidence could give weight to the wishful thinking of the "Jesus is God" believing translators, then they might find the one singular case in one singular verse, where the bible identifies Jesus as God, within a book that clearly identifies Jesus as one person, and God as another person, a fact which is consistent in all of the other text written or spoken by the author (Peter).

A critical thinker would think to themselves, "perhaps the rule is garbage and the 1st century Greek speaking Roman Empire wasn't bound by Granville Sharp's rule". It appears that even the "Jesus is God" believing translators are 5/6 of the way there on their own and are desperately clinging to the last bits lest their doctrine be jeopardized.



(I presume this is your way of saying I was correct in every other part of my evaluation, and I'll say thanks).
You are wrong because the same person in both 1:1 and 1:11 is called Lord and Savior, God and Savior. One Person is being described in both passages.

nice try..................

hope this helps !!!
 
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