Jesus is just a messenger of the word of GOD not GOD .

shnarkle

Well-known member
I think you are misreading numbers to make the serpents metaphorical or spiritual. That is not what the Bible is portrarying. Do you think the entire story of the Jews escape from Egypt is a metaphor, but never literally took place?
If you place your faith in history, you will lose. It is the truth that sets one free and these narratives are packed full of eternal truths. You're welcome to view them as history, but even those who wrote them didn't see it that way.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
If you place your faith in history, you will lose. It is the truth that sets one free and these narratives are packed full of eternal truths. You're welcome to view them as history, but even those who wrote them didn't see it that way.
you will have to argue that with the entire jewish nation thruout history.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
you will have to argue that with the entire jewish nation thruout history.
Not really. Most observant Jews are far deeper into the eternal truths of scripture than mainstream Christianity. Ask any of them if the gospels are historical, and they'll all readily admit that they aren't and for good reason. Scholars have known for quite some time how they fit the liturgical calendar like a hand into a glove. They're not gentile documents. They're Jewish documents which is probably why gentiles don't understand them.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Not really. Most observant Jews are far deeper into the eternal truths of scripture than mainstream Christianity. Ask any of them if the gospels are historical, and they'll all readily admit that they aren't and for good reason. Scholars have known for quite some time how they fit the liturgical calendar like a hand into a glove. They're not gentile documents. They're Jewish documents which is probably why gentiles don't understand them.
You are curious as it is obvious you are getting some guidance outside of the Bible, which dismisses standard Jewish understanding of their scripture. Ask any Jew. Were Moses, Abraham, David and Isaiah real Jews who walked the earth. You won't get what you are saying here.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
You are curious as it is obvious you are getting some guidance outside of the Bible, which dismisses standard Jewish understanding of their scripture. Ask any Jew. Were Moses, Abraham, David and Isaiah real Jews who walked the earth. You won't get what you are saying here.
You're assuming quite a bit here. For example, no observant, literate Jew is going to claim that Abraham, Isaac, or Moses were Jews. David is the only one in your list who was from the tribe of Judah.

Again, I'm gaining my insights directly from Christ's own words which clearly point out that it is "the truth that shall set you free", not histories. Paul makes a similar claim as well, and here you are pretending that knowledgeable Jews are claiming that Abraham, Isaac, and Moses were Jews. Abraham and Isaac weren't even Israelites.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
You're assuming quite a bit here. For example, no observant, literate Jew is going to claim that Abraham, Isaac, or Moses were Jews. David is the only one in your list who was from the tribe of Judah.

Again, I'm gaining my insights directly from Christ's own words which clearly point out that it is "the truth that shall set you free", not histories. Paul makes a similar claim as well, and here you are pretending that knowledgeable Jews are claiming that Abraham, Isaac, and Moses were Jews. Abraham and Isaac weren't even Israelites.
interesting talk but you ignored the gist of the post: these were real humans
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
interesting talk but you ignored the gist of the post: these were real humans
The point of these narratives is not to establish if these people were real. The point is to look at the deeper truths contained in the narratives.

When I was a child, our class went on a field trip to a planetarium. It was primarily with respect to what we were studying in our science class. After the presentation was completed, we were invited to ask questions. There were a couple dozen science related questions presented, and then one of the students asked, "How much time did it take you to build that structure that recreates the night sky on this dome?" He had no ability to focus on the whole point of the presentation.

Likewise, this is the case with those who seek to establish historical facts rather than note that this is a literary work by authors who are revealing God's wisdom. This is no different than the atheist who claims that none of the bible can be bothered with until one establishes or proves the existence of God. The bible never proves the existence of God. The biblical authors begin with that as a Given and proceed from there. The focus is upon the eternal truths revealed that spring from that premise or assumption. Focusing or questioning that premise is pointless which is why atheists seldom study the bible. They have no ability to focus on what they're reading. The same is true for those who need the bible to be historically accurate or factual. They place their faith in histories, genealogies, etc. Paul says to stop wasting your time with that nonsense. These examples are for our edification. They're not to prove if Moses was a real personage or if God exists. That's a Given. One must move on from that starting point, not dwell on it as if one doesn't believe it.
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
Yes, and the proof of Jesus death and resurrection is the Spirit that is in us which is the gift of God. It may be a historical fact, but it is an existential reality! God bless you. :)
 

Shilohsfoal

Active member
Jesus
Jesus is just a messenger of the word of GOD not GOD .
A son of GOD not GOD the FATHER.
He shows us that when he shows us how to pray .
Matthew 6:9 (KJV) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
He did not say pray to him , but to the FATHER.

Matthew 12:50 (KJV)
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
He will be all things to you but not your GOD .

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
How more clear must it be ?

These tell us about Jesus . That he is a messenger only and not GOD .
John 3:14 (KJV)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Look what happened with the serpent.
Numbers 21:8-9 (KJV)
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
2 Kings 18:4 (KJV)
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Isaiah 42:1 (KJV) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV) I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

See how Jesus compares himself to the serpent , so we don’t make the same error as those people did with worshipping the serpent.

He is a faithful servant of the FATHER.
Same as we must be .

If he was GOD the FATHER why would he deliver the kingdom
to the FATHER ?
1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
I remember reading how the word of God said they had pierced my hands and my feet.
Was the word of God saying his hands and feet would be pierced or someone else's?
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
I remember reading how the word of God said they had pierced my hands and my feet.
Was the word of God saying his hands and feet would be pierced or someone else's?
Oh, when we pray to Jesus, we are praying to the one Lord God who is Spirit. How many know who Jesus is and still see him as a flesh body they say is a glorified body. How deluded Christianity has become and have not known Christ that is the Spirit within them. It is truly sad! God bless you. :)
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
The point of these narratives is not to establish if these people were real. The point is to look at the deeper truths contained in the narratives.

When I was a child, our class went on a field trip to a planetarium. It was primarily with respect to what we were studying in our science class. After the presentation was completed, we were invited to ask questions. There were a couple dozen science related questions presented, and then one of the students asked, "How much time did it take you to build that structure that recreates the night sky on this dome?" He had no ability to focus on the whole point of the presentation.

Likewise, this is the case with those who seek to establish historical facts rather than note that this is a literary work by authors who are revealing God's wisdom. This is no different than the atheist who claims that none of the bible can be bothered with until one establishes or proves the existence of God. The bible never proves the existence of God. The biblical authors begin with that as a Given and proceed from there. The focus is upon the eternal truths revealed that spring from that premise or assumption. Focusing or questioning that premise is pointless which is why atheists seldom study the bible. They have no ability to focus on what they're reading. The same is true for those who need the bible to be historically accurate or factual. They place their faith in histories, genealogies, etc. Paul says to stop wasting your time with that nonsense. These examples are for our edification. They're not to prove if Moses was a real personage or if God exists. That's a Given. One must move on from that starting point, not dwell on it as if one doesn't believe it.
I trust that the Jews believed their history in the Bible was accurate. If you deny that, then you will head off in an unprofitable direction.
Basic facts should not be ignored in favor of some theoretical idea
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I trust that the Jews believed their history in the Bible was accurate. If you deny that, then you will head off in an unprofitable direction.
Basic facts should not be ignored in favor of some theoretical idea
Deeper truths should not be ignored in favor of basic facts. The bible points out that one should not go back and harvest the gleanings, but leave them for the poor. Jesus usefully observes that no one who looks back from the plow is suitable for the kingdom. Do you see the deeper truth or are you going to focus on the literal commandment alone?

The legalists took God's command to bind phylacteries on their forehead and on their arms while Jesus points out that he only does what he sees the father doing. See the difference? The former are stuck obsessing over boxes on their forehead while the latter are actually manifesting God's will.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Deeper truths should not be ignored in favor of basic facts. The bible points out that one should not go back and harvest the gleanings, but leave them for the poor. Jesus usefully observes that no one who looks back from the plow is suitable for the kingdom. Do you see the deeper truth or are you going to focus on the literal commandment alone?

The legalists took God's command to bind phylacteries on their forehead and on their arms while Jesus points out that he only does what he sees the father doing. See the difference? The former are stuck obsessing over boxes on their forehead while the latter are actually manifesting God's will.
you changed what I said and argued against your own strawman,
I said facts should not be ignore
Deeper truths come after the facts are assimilated
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
you changed what I said and argued against your own strawman,
False. I simply pointed out that you've got it backwards.
I said facts should not be ignore
Deeper truths come after the facts are assimilated
One doesn't need to establish facts to understand deeper truths. One only has to have the capacity to receive those deeper truths. This is evident in the narrative of Jonah which contains a number of deeper truths which plenty of observant Jews would openly admit they would never look at that as historical fact. Talking snakes is another prime example.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
False. I simply pointed out that you've got it backwards.

One doesn't need to establish facts to understand deeper truths. One only has to have the capacity to receive those deeper truths. This is evident in the narrative of Jonah which contains a number of deeper truths which plenty of observant Jews would openly admit they would never look at that as historical fact. Talking snakes is another prime example.
I disagree: your approach is esoteric, the Bible is rarely
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
To those with a myopic view of the bible, anything they don't see is esoteric.
again the point of my discussion is that there is a first meaning to scripture that is frequently literal, presentational. If you bypass that in search of a "spiritual" meaning, I doubt you will find truth. But if you learn the primary meaning then you have a launchpad for deeper truth
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
again the point of my discussion is that there is a first meaning to scripture that is frequently literal, presentational. If you bypass that in search of a "spiritual" meaning, I doubt you will find truth. But if you learn the primary meaning then you have a launchpad for deeper truth
I've never claimed one must bypass one's first impressions of a text. Regardless of how one interprets these texts. My point is that at some point, one must look at what the texts are actually claiming.

For example, Jesus usefully observes that it is the truth that sets one free. He doesn't say knowledge of the truth sets one free, nor does he say that histories or genealogies will set one free and Paul openly admits that they are useless. So perhaps you might want to take your own advice and look at what they're literally saying before assuming that others have not done so already.

We all have to start somewhere. I'm simply pointing out that one also needs to run the race and that requires leaving the starting line which is something you're evidently not comfortable doing yet.
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
I've never claimed one must bypass one's first impressions of a text. Regardless of how one interprets these texts. My point is that at some point, one must look at what the texts are actually claiming.

For example, Jesus usefully observes that it is the truth that sets one free. He doesn't say knowledge of the truth sets one free, nor does he say that histories or genealogies will set one free and Paul openly admits that they are useless. So perhaps you might want to take your own advice and look at what they're literally saying before assuming that others have not done so already.

We all have to start somewhere. I'm simply pointing out that one also needs to run the race and that requires leaving the starting line which is something you're evidently not comfortable doing yet.
Amazingly the starting gate and finish line are one and the same.
Unchecked Copy Box
Gal 6:14 - But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord JesusChrist, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. That means no glorying in Paul or anyone other than Jesus.
 
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