Jesus is just a messenger of the word of GOD not GOD .

101G said:
ERROR, not even the apostle Paul adimited he did not know it all Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before," Philippians 3:14 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
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That is why I follow Jesus and not Paul. In Christ I am complete, I have the mind of as we are supposed to have.

In Paul you are incomplete and a sinner just as you stated. Why follow an incompletion when you can follow the complete?
Why follow anyone else when you can be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect?
101G said:
so, in Character he had not attained.
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Agreed, Paul never received the perfections of Christ in righteousness to be holy pure and without sin that comes with the Christ be in you.

Character is the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual.
.

101G said:
I'm not talking about KNOWLEDGE, but NATURE..... do you understand?
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Perfectly. Im not talking about knowledge either. The nature of man is to provide for the flesh. The nature of Spirit is to direct the flesh.

Try looking at the life of Jesus. Jesus was stuck in the temple for law, taught the laws of those temples at a young age.

The reason that you cant see the change that happened in Jesus character before Matt 3:16 and after Matt 3:16 is from lack in being identified with that same Christ that only God Himself can put in mans character. Disposition, actions, speech, same signs follow.

You really cant see how God changes a mans character -- and here you are trying to convince me that men dont change character when in fact that is the very thing that happens when ones character is changed form that religious mind taught in the temples to actually inheriting the gift of God to have His same character as your own.
101G said:
My God is it that hard to understand?????....
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Evidently for you dont seem to have a clue how ones character changes when he receives the mind of Christ. You are stuck in your old character is all. There is noting new for you in your god, you are static, gone into spiritual retirement with no further way to advance into the character of Christ, which simply means to be anointed of Gods mind, or Spirit its called.

You cant be of self and be of God at all. You have to be of His character if you are to be of Him and have His same disposition.

Disposition = a person's inherent qualities of mind and character. Is your character that of Christ? Is your disposition that of Christ?

Mine is, and my character changed to His character 48 years ago, im not the same character that I was 48 years ago. Jesus no different at all for I have the mind of Christ. Walk as He walks in His same light, same character, same mind, same disposition.
101G said:
PICJAG, 101G.
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Fred said:
Your heresy was already crushed in John 9:38.

Thanks for making it easy for me.
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John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And Jesus explain in verse 39 .
Being. Jew he would have known these words.
Numbers 23:19 (KJV)
God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

How to judge for a false prophet.

Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
 
Jim harmon said:
The FATHER as Jesus said .
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And pray to Jesus which Jesus taught.

John 14:14
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. (NASB)

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).
 
Fred said:
And pray to Jesus which Jesus taught.

John 14:14
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. (NASB)

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).
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You put the underline under the wrong words. I have rectified it above. The above from the TDNT also seems wrong, as to pray to someone directly in their own name involved a tautology at best and an insult at worst.
 
cjab said:
You put the underline under the wrong words. I have rectified it above.
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No, I didn't because it teaches Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer. Your confusion here was not forgotten:
https://forums.carm.org/threads/matthew-6-9-does-not-forbid-praying-to-the-lord-jesus.7422/page-4#post-670597:


cjab said:
The above from the TDNT also seems wrong, as to pray to someone directly in their own name involved a tautology at best and an insult at worst.
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You are still confused.
Robert Bowman and J. Ed Komoszewski: According to the Gospel of John, Jesus himself encouraged his earliest followers to pray to him: "Whatever you ask me in my name, I will do" (John 14:14, author's translation). It sounds strange for some readers to speak of praying to Jesus in his own name, but the Greek Old Testament also occasionally speaks this way, (e.g., 1 Chron. 16:8, "call on his name"; Ps. 54:1, "save me in your name," translating literally) (Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, page 51).
 
Jim harmon said:
To be clear one is in great error referring to GOD as a person .
That in itself is bringing GOD down to mans level . Disrespectful to GOD .
Read Gens 1 again .
Up to Gens 1:26 you read GOD said .
Gens 1:8 HE made the heavens .
In Gens 2:1 it says HE made the hosts of them .
So by conclusion, not adding to or taking away , when HE made the heavens HE made the hosts of them also.
So by the time we get to Gens 1:26 HIS servants , the Angels , were made .
so in Gens 1:26 HE was talking to HIS Angels.
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A Father is a Person who relates to others. Jesus, God the Son, taught us to relate to our Father in Heaven. The Father adopted us as His children.
 
Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
Fred said:
No, I didn't because it teaches Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer. Your confusion here was not forgotten:
https://forums.carm.org/threads/matthew-6-9-does-not-forbid-praying-to-the-lord-jesus.7422/page-4#post-670597:
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You are confused. To invoke "in the name of Jesus" is to beseech him directly, as Jesus himself made clear.

Fred said:
You are still confused.
Robert Bowman and J. Ed Komoszewski: According to the Gospel of John, Jesus himself encouraged his earliest followers to pray to him: "Whatever you ask me in my name, I will do" (John 14:14, author's translation). It sounds strange for some readers to speak of praying to Jesus in his own name, but the Greek Old Testament also occasionally speaks this way, (e.g., 1 Chron. 16:8, "call on his name"; Ps. 54:1, "save me in your name," translating literally) (Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, page 51).
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Anyone who writes a book called "The Case for the Deity of Christ" is a practitioner of gnosticism.

Ps 54:1 invokes the generic Elohim, which isn't the "name" of God. That isn't the same as invoking Jesus in Jesus' name. Such is plain daft as well as being contrary to his instructions to ask of the Father.
 
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Jim harmon said:
Jesus
Jesus is just a messenger of the word of GOD not GOD .
A son of GOD not GOD the FATHER.
He shows us that when he shows us how to pray .
Matthew 6:9 (KJV) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
He did not say pray to him , but to the FATHER.

Matthew 12:50 (KJV)
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
He will be all things to you but not your GOD .

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
How more clear must it be ?

These tell us about Jesus . That he is a messenger only and not GOD .
John 3:14 (KJV)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Look what happened with the serpent.
Numbers 21:8-9 (KJV)
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
2 Kings 18:4 (KJV)
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Isaiah 42:1 (KJV) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV) I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

See how Jesus compares himself to the serpent , so we don’t make the same error as those people did with worshipping the serpent.

He is a faithful servant of the FATHER.
Same as we must be .

If he was GOD the FATHER why would he deliver the kingdom
to the FATHER ?
1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
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Yes indeed, and as so far I have not yet found anyone who claims that He is God nor that HE has Himself claimed to be God..
 
Fred said:
cjab is avoding the fact that John 14:14 teaches the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
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I have stated "in my name" is the proper form of address to Jesus, as exemplified by the apostles in Acts and by Jesus himself. Prayer is to be directed to or spoken to the Father, as the 'head of Christ' per Christ's command. You are avoiding the issue of correctness of forms in seeking to oust the authority and relevance of the Father. Such is impermissible. Christianity is never worship of Christ to the exclusion of the Father: such constitutes heretical Christianity that is in danger of descending into ba'al worship (all ba'als share this commonality - they usurp their own father).
 
cjab said:
I have stated "in my name" is the proper form of address to Jesus, as exemplified by the apostles in Acts and by Jesus himself. Prayer is to be directed to or spoken to the Father, as the 'head of Christ' per Christ's command. You are avoiding the issue of correctness of forms in seeking to oust the authority and relevance of the Father. Such is impermissible. Christianity is never worship of Christ to the exclusion of the Father: such constitutes heretical Christianity that is in danger of descending into ba'al worship (all ba'als share this commonality - they usurp their own father).
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When Christ said "ask Me" in John 14:14 it refers to praying to Him. When Christ said to ask of the Father it refers to praying to Father (John 15:16).
Don't hold to one while ignoring the other.

I never affirmed that the worship of Christ is to the exclusion of the Father. The worship of Christ is to the glory of the Father.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-fear-of-the-lord-yhwh-the-fear-of-the-lord-jesus.7732/page-2#post-534992
 
Fred said:
When Christ said "ask Me" in John 14:14 it refers to praying to Him. When Christ said to ask of the Father it refers to praying to Father (John 15:16).
Don't hold to one while ignoring the other.
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It is you who are ignoring the form of address taught by Christ as given in the very verse you quoted John 14:14.

Fred said:
I never affirmed that the worship of Christ is to the exclusion of the Father. The worship of Christ is to the glory of the Father.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-fear-of-the-lord-yhwh-the-fear-of-the-lord-jesus.7732/page-2#post-534992
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The worship of Christ must be in the appropriate form in order to bring glory to the Father. Carnal worshop of Jesus is deprecated cf. Act 19:15, Mat 7:22.
 
cjab said:
It is you who are ignoring the form of address taught by Christ as given in the very verse you quoted John 14:14.
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Your delusion won't work. To ask Christ in John 14:14 refers to praying to Him.

cjab said:
The worship of Christ must be in the appropriate form in order to bring glory to the Father. Carnal worshop of Jesus is deprecated cf. Act 19:15, Mat 7:22.
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What does your delusional "appropriate form in order" mean?
 
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