Jesus is NOT Michael !

John t

Active member
3:1. In response to the implied challenge of the question the Lord himself speaks. Behold is literally ‘Behold me’, ‘Here I am, about to send my messenger’. In the end no man will avoid confrontation with God, and it is of his goodness that warning of that event is given. Just as preparations are made in advance for a royal procession, so the Lord’s coming would be heralded by a forerunner to indicate the route (Isa. 40:3) and summon the population to fill up the ruts and remove the boulders (Isa. 57:14; 62:10), that is, prepare the way. Malachi leaves the hearer to apply the metaphor. The identity of my messenger is not revealed. In that he was seeking to bring men to repentance, Malachi would be aware of fulfilling that role, but so had all the prophets. It is unlikely that he was thinking of himself, but rather of someone with a unique mission as forerunner (cf. 4:5), who himself must be distinguished from the messenger of the covenant.

When the preparations are completed the Lord (Heb. ʾādôn) will suddenly come to his temple. The promise suggests that there was continuing disappointment with the second temple, despite the encouragement of Haggai and Zechariah (Hag. 2:7; Zech. 2:10, etc.), and it was a healthy reaction to be looking to God to do something greater than they had yet seen. When the Lord comes Ezekiel’s vision of the glory returning to fill the house (Ezek. 43:1–5) will be completed, and the purpose of the rebuilding of the temple fulfilled. But who is intended by the messenger of the covenant? The title occurs only here, so there is no aid to interpretation apart from this context. He comes simultaneously with the Lord, if indeed he is not to be identified with him (so AV, RV), a view encouraged by a messianic interpretation in the light of the New Testament. The prophet, however, may have been thinking that, as the angel of the Lord was instrumental in establishing the Mosaic covenant (Exod. 3:2; cf. Isa. 63:9), so he would be needed to institute the new covenant (Jer. 31:31; Ezek. 37:26). Jewish commentators explain him as the angel appointed to avenge the breaking of any covenant, or as Elijah.

In whom you delight is probably ironical. Just as Amos had had to point out that the day of the Lord was to be dark and not light (Amos 5:18), so the coming of the messenger of the covenant would be less than welcome when the implications of his coming were experienced. The fact that he will come suddenly is ominous, for suddenness was usually associated with a calamitous event (e.g. Isa. 47:11; 48:3; Jer. 4:20, etc.).

2. Who can endure the day …? The question implies a searching ordeal, and the second question who can stand? is borrowed from battle imagery (2 Kgs 10:4; Amos 2:15) and means ‘who will stand his ground?’. The prophet suggests that no-one will pass the penetrating tests which the Lord will impose. Yet the purpose of the refiner was not to destroy but to purify, and the fuller’s soap, or rather alkali (soap in our sense was not yet in use), was applied in order to whiten cloth. According to these metaphors suffering fulfils a divine plan to remove impurities of character. The picture of the refiner is a persistent one in the prophets (Isa. 1:25; 48:10; Jer. 6:29, 30; Ezek. 22:17–22). ‘The beauty of this picture is that the refiner looks into the open furnace, or pot, and knows that the process of purifying is complete, and the dross all burnt away, when he can see his image plainly reflected in the molten metal.’

3. The refiner who sits and concentrates all his attention on the metal in the crucible depicts something of the concern of the Lord for the holiness of his people. He begins at his sanctuary (cf. Ezek. 9:6) with the sons of Levi to purify them till they present right offerings, or, more literally, offerings in righteousness (AV, RV). Both senses are needed. Once character has been transformed and purified the offerings (Heb. minḥâ) will both be worthy and be offered in the right spirit.

4. Only then will the rest of the population, who no doubt also undergo the purifying process, be able to offer what is pleasing to the Lord as in days of old. The last phrase is indefinite, being used to refer both to the time of Moses (Isa. 63:9, 11; Matt. 7:14) and of David (Amos 9:11). Malachi is almost certainly thinking of the Mosaic period as the ideal era (Jer. 2:2, 3), when the Israelites depended directly on God.

5. What is a refining process for some will for others bring judgment. It is the community that is being refined, and, as in the case of metal, the base elements must be removed. The Lord is both witness and judge in the law suit against those who refuse to take correction and so are condemned ‘in that day’. No other witness is needed because no other could be competent (2:14; cf. Jer. 29:23). The word swift would be better translated ‘expert’. The speed results from training. Cf. Ezra 7:6, where ‘skilled’ is from the same root. Malachi is the faithful pastor who faces his people with the possibility of ultimate rejection but hopes all the time to win them.


Baldwin, J. G. (1972). Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 28, pp. 264–266). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
3:1. In response to the implied challenge of the question the Lord himself speaks. Behold is literally ‘Behold me’, ‘Here I am, about to send my messenger’. In the end no man will avoid confrontation with God, and it is of his goodness that warning of that event is given. Just as preparations are made in advance for a royal procession, so the Lord’s coming would be heralded by a forerunner to indicate the route (Isa. 40:3) and summon the population to fill up the ruts and remove the boulders (Isa. 57:14; 62:10), that is, prepare the way. Malachi leaves the hearer to apply the metaphor. The identity of my messenger is not revealed. In that he was seeking to bring men to repentance, Malachi would be aware of fulfilling that role, but so had all the prophets. It is unlikely that he was thinking of himself, but rather of someone with a unique mission as forerunner (cf. 4:5), who himself must be distinguished from the messenger of the covenant.

When the preparations are completed the Lord (Heb. ʾādôn) will suddenly come to his temple. The promise suggests that there was continuing disappointment with the second temple, despite the encouragement of Haggai and Zechariah (Hag. 2:7; Zech. 2:10, etc.), and it was a healthy reaction to be looking to God to do something greater than they had yet seen. When the Lord comes Ezekiel’s vision of the glory returning to fill the house (Ezek. 43:1–5) will be completed, and the purpose of the rebuilding of the temple fulfilled. But who is intended by the messenger of the covenant? The title occurs only here, so there is no aid to interpretation apart from this context. He comes simultaneously with the Lord, if indeed he is not to be identified with him (so AV, RV), a view encouraged by a messianic interpretation in the light of the New Testament. The prophet, however, may have been thinking that, as the angel of the Lord was instrumental in establishing the Mosaic covenant (Exod. 3:2; cf. Isa. 63:9), so he would be needed to institute the new covenant (Jer. 31:31; Ezek. 37:26). Jewish commentators explain him as the angel appointed to avenge the breaking of any covenant, or as Elijah.

In whom you delight is probably ironical. Just as Amos had had to point out that the day of the Lord was to be dark and not light (Amos 5:18), so the coming of the messenger of the covenant would be less than welcome when the implications of his coming were experienced. The fact that he will come suddenly is ominous, for suddenness was usually associated with a calamitous event (e.g. Isa. 47:11; 48:3; Jer. 4:20, etc.).

2. Who can endure the day …? The question implies a searching ordeal, and the second question who can stand? is borrowed from battle imagery (2 Kgs 10:4; Amos 2:15) and means ‘who will stand his ground?’. The prophet suggests that no-one will pass the penetrating tests which the Lord will impose. Yet the purpose of the refiner was not to destroy but to purify, and the fuller’s soap, or rather alkali (soap in our sense was not yet in use), was applied in order to whiten cloth. According to these metaphors suffering fulfils a divine plan to remove impurities of character. The picture of the refiner is a persistent one in the prophets (Isa. 1:25; 48:10; Jer. 6:29, 30; Ezek. 22:17–22). ‘The beauty of this picture is that the refiner looks into the open furnace, or pot, and knows that the process of purifying is complete, and the dross all burnt away, when he can see his image plainly reflected in the molten metal.’

3. The refiner who sits and concentrates all his attention on the metal in the crucible depicts something of the concern of the Lord for the holiness of his people. He begins at his sanctuary (cf. Ezek. 9:6) with the sons of Levi to purify them till they present right offerings, or, more literally, offerings in righteousness (AV, RV). Both senses are needed. Once character has been transformed and purified the offerings (Heb. minḥâ) will both be worthy and be offered in the right spirit.

4. Only then will the rest of the population, who no doubt also undergo the purifying process, be able to offer what is pleasing to the Lord as in days of old. The last phrase is indefinite, being used to refer both to the time of Moses (Isa. 63:9, 11; Matt. 7:14) and of David (Amos 9:11). Malachi is almost certainly thinking of the Mosaic period as the ideal era (Jer. 2:2, 3), when the Israelites depended directly on God.

5. What is a refining process for some will for others bring judgment. It is the community that is being refined, and, as in the case of metal, the base elements must be removed. The Lord is both witness and judge in the law suit against those who refuse to take correction and so are condemned ‘in that day’. No other witness is needed because no other could be competent (2:14; cf. Jer. 29:23). The word swift would be better translated ‘expert’. The speed results from training. Cf. Ezra 7:6, where ‘skilled’ is from the same root. Malachi is the faithful pastor who faces his people with the possibility of ultimate rejection but hopes all the time to win them.


Baldwin, J. G. (1972). Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 28, pp. 264–266). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
Its simple, The prophet is speaking about John the Baptist and Jesus Christ in Mal 3:1
 

John t

Active member
Jesus being the Angel of the Covenant is more than my say so Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger/angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.


As I stated earlier:

What you present here in total is an extended contrary-to-fact delusion. There is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that hints of that heresy you wish to establish.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
As I stated earlier:

What you present here in total is an extended contrary-to-fact delusion. There is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that hints of that heresy you wish to establish.
Yeah Right, Jesus is clearly Identified as an Angel in Mal 3:1 and I believe He would be the Arch Angel simply because of what Arch means. Its the greek word archō and means:

to be chief, to lead, to rule, reign (rule) over.

Christ would be the Chief Angel and He rules over them, because Hes their Lord and Sovereign !
 

John t

Active member
Its simple, The prophet is speaking about John the Baptist and Jesus Christ in Mal 3:1 Emphasis added
A few posts back you stated that Jesus Christ is the subject. Now you say it is BOTH Jesus Christ and John the Baptizer.

As one of my sig lines succinctly said on the previous edition of CARM "inconsistency is a little hob goblin haunting every cult. "
Your moving the goal posts in Malachi from being only about Jesus Christ to now include John the Baptizer is no exception to that axiom about inconsistency.

Indeed, your theology is quite cult-like.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
A few posts back you stated that Jesus Christ is the subject. Now you say it is BOTH Jesus Christ and John the Baptizer.

As one of my sig lines succinctly said on the previous edition of CARM "inconsistency is a little hob goblin haunting every cult. "
Your moving the goal posts in Malachi from being only about Jesus Christ to now include John the Baptizer is no exception to that axiom about inconsistency.

Indeed, your theology is quite cult-like.
I know what I said, hasnt changed except in your imagination !
 

John t

Active member
Yeah Right, Jesus is clearly Identified as an Angel in Mal 3:1 and I believe He would be the Arch Angel simply because of what Arch means. Its the greek word archō and means:

to be chief, to lead, to rule, reign (rule) over.

Christ would be the Chief Angel and He rules over them, because Hes their Lord and Sovereign !
Are you aware that Malachi wrote his book in HEBREW?

That FACT makes your continuous argument about the meaning of a Greek word absurd and meaningless
 
Michael is a prince, while Jesus is King of kings !
AV Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Are you saying, Jesus can never be "The Prince of Peace" ???

AV Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

I will be fair in acknowledging "King of kings" after Jesus sacrifice at the cross for men on earth, as "Lord of lords, and King of kings"

Many ignore timing of GOD's names, before and after the cross. Every earthly king was a prince before being a king.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
Baldwin, J. G. (1972). Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 28, pp. 264–266). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
You have your prophet(s) for your understanding as well, who take precedence over scriptures in totality.
Joyce G. Baldwin (1 August 1921 – 30 December 1995) was an English evangelical biblical scholar and theological educator who became one of the leading women in the field of biblical scholarship in her day. At a time when the Church of England did not ordain women to any of its orders (deacon, priest or bishop), she championed the cause of women's ministry through influential writing, teaching and practical example.
She is still a Sunday keeping individual acknowledging RCC authority over her, versus GOD's Authority over her. In spite of her OT/OC studies.

AV 1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

In reading the except you made: Is Jesus pure(with no sin impurities) to you, in Jesus' sabbath keeping on earth ???

AV Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

GOD will have ultimate judgment over everyone's choices, between the mark of the beast versus the seal of GOD. Including who knew what and when.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

John t

Active member
john
Thats your problem, calling words meaningless
No, I was only calling your words that
Are you aware that Malachi wrote his book in HEBREW?

That FACT makes your continuous argument about the meaning of a Greek word absurd and meaningless
What you are doing is taking my words out of context in order to create a false impression

Because I copied what I originally stated and your corrupted version, anyone on this blog can see the degree of distortion honesty that you will go to in order to maintain your heresy.. You revealed your shame to all with demonstrated your false posting of my actual words

PS
it is never a good idea to "debate the original languages" with someone who studied both
 

Buzzard

Active member
Yep; just as David says

ps 119:98
Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies:
for they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the ancients,

because I keep thy precepts.

and then we are warned about those that come
all puffed up in their own self exaltation
 

robycop3

Active member
AV Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Are you saying, Jesus can never be "The Prince of Peace" ???

AV Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

I will be fair in acknowledging "King of kings" after Jesus sacrifice at the cross for men on earth, as "Lord of lords, and King of kings"

Many ignore timing of GOD's names, before and after the cross. Every earthly king was a prince before being a king.

Yours in Christ, Michael
Michael is never called a king.
 
Michael is never called a king.
AV Jn 18:36-38 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault [at all].

Do you agree completely with Jesus ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

John t

Active member
Yep; just as David says

Solomon says

Proverbs 26:
3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
and a rod for the back of fools.

4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Just letting you know that can play that game too 😁
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No, I was only calling your words that

What you are doing is taking my words out of context in order to create a false impression

Because I copied what I originally stated and your corrupted version, anyone on this blog can see the degree of distortion honesty that you will go to in order to maintain your heresy.. You revealed your shame to all with demonstrated your false posting of my actual words

PS
it is never a good idea to "debate the original languages" with someone who studied both
You called a dictionary word meaningless. The greek word for Arch
 

Buzzard

Active member
Solomon says

Proverbs 26:
3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
and a rod for the back of fools.

4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Just letting you know that can play that game too 😁
Not a game where we do as they did
written to the Bride of Christ

For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves;
but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves,
they are without understanding.

2 Corinthians 10:12
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had posted this
Posters;
in those days and even up untill after WW2
people did not have $50,000 SUVs and hit the freeway at 80 MPH
to get to services 9 AM or so
Fri was "Day of Preparation" and the Gates were shut
Sabbath morning Israel would start walking,
maybe a donkey or 2 and a couple of OX Carts,
with them were the elderly, small children, expecting mothers and the lame
ect. ect. ect; they were not as today, driving todays Automobiles 80 MPH down a freeway
to get there on time -----
they would start Gathering Together arriving approx noon

the morning ceremonies were for the Levites,
and only those authorized to minister in the Sanctuary;
now that they are "Clean" and qualified to minister for the other tribes,
these afternoon services started about 3:00 PM for the other tribes

now that all Israel was "Clean"
the gates were opened at the end of the Sabbath
(Sunday = 1st Day of the Week
and the Gentiles could enter and hear the Law read buy those authorized to do so

But even you Johnt;
sometimes post some golden words;
even if you knew it not

John t said:
The refiner who sits and concentrates all his attention on the metal in the crucible depicts something of the concern of the Lord for the holiness of his people. He begins at his sanctuary (cf. Ezek. 9:6) with the sons of Levi to purify them till they present right offerings, or, more literally, offerings in righteousness (AV, RV). Both senses are needed. Once character has been transformed and purified the offerings (Heb. minḥâ) will both be worthy and be offered in the right spirit.

4. Only then will the rest of the population, who no doubt also undergo the purifying process, be able to offer what is pleasing to the Lord as in days of old. The last phrase is indefinite, being used to refer both to the time of Moses (Isa. 63:9, 11; Matt. 7:14) and of David (Amos 9:11). Malachi is almost certainly thinking of the Mosaic period as the ideal era (Jer. 2:2, 3), when the Israelites depended directly on God.

end of john post
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
now that all Israel has gone thru this cleansing Ceremoniously,
on the Sabbath Day
can they witness to the Gentiles when the gates were opened to the at the close of the Sabbath
which would be sundown on the 7th Day

now that all Israel was "Clean"
and the incense (which are the prayers of the Saints) was offered up
at the time appointed time, by the Levites of the course of Abbi authorized to do so,
the gates opened at the end of the Sabbath
(Sunday = 1st Day of the Week
and the Gentiles could enter and hear the Law read buy those authorized to do so

so I am going to ask Michael

Now, Michael;
explain to us know nottins
how 1st Day of the week; Sunday
can possibility be the Mark of the Beast
 
so I am going to ask Michael
Now, Michael;
explain to us know nottins
how 1st Day of the week; Sunday
can possibility be the Mark of the Beast
AV Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

In fulfillment of prophecy, it will be the day they kill for.

History will bear record, that they have already killed sabbath keepers as "Judaizing heresy", so they will repeat past behavior, because they are past perfect in "papal infallibility".

AV Mt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Did Jesus impute to you sabbath righteousness from Jesus' life to you, in justification ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

pythons

Member
Jesus is NOT an angel or an arch angel.

The idea comes from SDA's prior well stated belief that Jesus was NOT God...
...And that in fact was classified as belonging to the angel class.
...This is something very contrary to what the Scriptures attest.

The following is dispositive.

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Signs of the Times Sept 14 1882

Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God's purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence.

The two above quotes are directly referencing Lucifer, identifying him as within the angelic class...
...This should not be particularly newsworthy for those who've studied the history of the SDA Church.
...Between it's (SDA) founding and approximately 1950 the Church has been decidedly anti-trinitarian.

To this day the SDA Church abstains from repeating the Nicene or Apostles Creed...
...Primarily because the Nicene Creed is affirmative of the Trinity Doctrine - while Ellen is negative of it.
...And, there are simply too many anti Trinity statements & whole articles from Ellen White.

Thus, the SDA Church is in a bit of a bind as it's difficult to maintain the status of Prophetess for Ellen....
...While openly repudiating her teachings on Jesus being Michael the archangel.
....Slowly however the SDA Church is inching toward more Orthodox positions.

The last I heard the SDA's are not openly conducting "gay marriage" like many of the other well known Churches have been doing so at least they are holding up correct teaching there. Past that I have been told by an SDA that they didn't believe that Michael the archangel was Jesus and that was just something the Church officially taught but you really weren't tested on it and folks were at liberty to believe it or not. Its only fair to add that.
 
Top