Jesus is NOT Michael !

robycop3

Active member
This is a belief shared by JWs & SDAs-that Jesus is the archangel Michael. That view is phony as a Chevy F-150.

Jesus has authority that Michael does not. If they were the same, they woulda always had the same authority. Scripture differentiates between them :

Jude:8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

But JESUS reviled Satan!

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

So we see Jesus didn't hesitate to revile Satan, while Michael wouldn't do it, clearly showing they're separate beings, with Jesus being superior.
 
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The teaching that Jesus is Michael the Archangel is an old, tired Arian argument. The early Adventist pioneers taught the heresy called "Arianism" which teaches that Jesus is not God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity. Those who believe this false doctrine teach that Jesus is an exalted angel. Those, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who promote this heresy today teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

This early Adventist heresy appeared in several books and articles published by the church. It even manifested itself in the hymnology of the church. In the official Seventh-day Adventist hymnal, published from 1941 until its recent revision in 1985, the church had changed the words of the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy" which says, "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity" to "God overall who rules eternity."
 

Norga

New member
From a Spurgeon sermon ‘The Angelic Life’ (22 November 1868) comes this partial quote
“Our Lord is called an angel. He is the angel of the covenant... We read that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon was cast down. The fight is going on every day. Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel.
 

TibiasDad

Member
From a Spurgeon sermon ‘The Angelic Life’ (22 November 1868) comes this partial quote

Hi Norga,

I think this is the first time I've met you, so welcome to CARM forums. I'm also assuming, by your comments, that you are a JW, or are at least sympathetic to their teachings and will thus say that your quotation is strung together to imply something completely untrue as to Spurgeon's meaning. Here is the larger context of Spurgeon's words: https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/the-angelic-life/#flipbook/

II. I would speak of THE ANGELIC LIFE ON EARTH.

If we are to be like the angels of God in heaven, it will be well to have an outline of it here — to give ourselves to the commencement of angelic life even here. We ought to do so. Our Lord is called an angel. He is the angel of the covenant — we ought to be like him now; therefore, we ought to have a present resemblance to angels. Ministers are especially called to this, for this is one of their names. John writes to the angels of the seven churches. Ministers are the messengers of God to the sons of men. They should be like that angel who flew in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to every creature; and, as the angel sounded that trumpet, so, as often as the time comes, and the assembly is gathered together, the Christian minister should have his trumpet ready, and that trumpet should give no uncertain sound. That we may be like angels here below is a certain fact, for we read of Stephen that his face shone, and even they who stoned him saw him as an angel of God. Why should we not be like angels, for did not men in the wilderness eat angels’ food, and may we not spiritually live on angels’ meat to-day; nay, may we not sing —

“Never did angels taste above,
Redeeming grace and dying love”?

Yet these are the daily meat and the daily drink of all the saved souls.

We can be like angels in our occupations. First, be it ours, as it was theirs, to declare the word of God. We read of the word published by angels; we read of the angels flying through the midst of heaven with the everlasting gospel. Men and brethren, according to your ability, be like the angels of God in this, and publish abroad the plan of salvation. Each man of you, according to his ability, tell to others the salvation of Jesus Christ. You will never be more angelic than when God makes you the messengers of his Holy Spirit to the hearts of men.

Be it ours to imitate the angels in fighting a good fight while we are here. We read that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon was cast down. The fight is going on every day. Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel. We, like Aim, and under him, must stand as champions for the truth, never to surrender, but being prepared to suffer, even unto blood, striving against sin. With undaunted courage, and a conscience that cannot be violated, let us stand fast for the one Lord, the one faith, and the one baptism, until he shall come who shall call us to the reckoning, and shall say, “Well done, good and faithful servants.” Like angels, then, let us teach, and like angels fight, for the cause and for the crown of Christ.


The entire sermon is about how we should be like angels in various ways, in fact, this is clearly stated just before the two quotations you piece together to form a single thought.

"If we are to be like the angels of God in heaven, it will be well to have an outline of it here — to give ourselves to the commencement of angelic life even here. We ought to do so. Our Lord is called an angel. He is the angel of the covenant — we ought to be like him now; therefore, we ought to have a present resemblance to angels."

And,

Be it ours to imitate the angels in fighting a good fight while we are here. We read that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon was cast down. The fight is going on every day. Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel. We, like Aim, and under him, must stand as champions for the truth, never to surrender, but being prepared to suffer, even unto blood, striving against sin.

So the context and spirit of the Prince of Preachers demonstrate his words to mean that even Jesus fought for the sake of truth and against evil in the same way that Michael the Archangel fought the demonic forces of evil. We as humans, including Jesus as a man, are called to do the same occupational tasks as angels, for we are all called to be "ministering spirits" to those God sends us to aid. Spurgeon was not saying Michael and Jesus are the same being!


Doug
 

Norga

New member
What you posted justt reinforces what I quoted . It's as if Spurgeon wanted to make sure he made himself clear.
 

TibiasDad

Member
What you posted justt reinforces what I quoted . It's as if Spurgeon wanted to make sure he made himself clear.

Spurgeon is saying Jesus and Michael are acting in a like manner, not that they the same person under two different names!


Doug
 

Norga

New member
Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel.

Our Lord is called an angel. He is the angel of the covenant — we ought to be like him now; therefore, we ought to have a present resemblance to angels."

Those are Spurgeons words
 

TibiasDad

Member
Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel.

Our Lord is called an angel. He is the angel of the covenant — we ought to be like him now; therefore, we ought to have a present resemblance to angels."

Those are Spurgeons words

Angel means messenger, and in this sense, we are all angels, but we are not angelic beings, Jesus was not and is not an angelic being. Spurgeon was not saying Jesus is an angelic being, and Spurgeon did not believe the Word was a created being, angelic or otherwise. You are taking his words out of context and isolating them to infer something not implied. You are doing the same thing the Watchtower did to Dr. Manley misquoting his Greek grammar and asserting a meaning for "and the Word was deity" that Dr.Manley had to publicly refute and denounce the Watchtower's misuse of his words.


Doug
 

herman

Member
Welcome to CARM Norga. It's virtually impossible "Biblically" that Jesus Christ is Michael the arc angel, which means Charles Spurgeon is WRONG, the JW's are wrong, the SDA are wrong and anyone else that believes this to be true.

The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and the word simply means "messenger." Yes, angels are messengers and the context of the word malak determines how the word is used. For example, at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

So Norga, who do you think is the person (the malak/angel/messenger) will clear the way of the Lord? It's none other than John the Baptist who is not any angel, but rather a human messenger. Mark 1:2-3, "Behold I send My messenger Before your face, who will prepare Your way; The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight."

Going back to Malachi 3:1, who do you think is the messenger of the covenant in the verse? Genesis 12:7, "And the Lord appeared to Abram and said, To your descendants I will give this land." So he build an altar there to the Lord who appeared to him." Later on at Genesis 15:18, "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates."

Now, here is where this all gets interesting. Genesis 16:7, Now the "malak/angel/messenger" of the Lord found her/Hagar by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur." The JW's, the SDA and even Charles Spurgeon say the angel of the Lord is Michael. They could not be more wrong. Let's read the text of Genesis 16.

Starting with Genesis 16:9, "Then the angel of the Lord said to her/Hagar, Return to your mistress/Sarai and submit yourself to her authority. Verse 10, "Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count. At verse 11 the angel of the Lord tells Hagar she is with child. At verse 12, the angel of the Lord says he will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, and every hand will be against him. And he will live to the east of all his brothers." Today these people are known as the Muslim Arabs.

The angel of the Lord is not Michael because angels cannot multiply descendants, only God can do that. Also notice Genesis 16:13 and what Hagar says. "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Please pay attention because the proof I am about to provide is rock solid.

Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, verse 2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." This is a physical visit of God Almighty to Abram. How do I know? Genesis 17:22, "And when He/God finished talking with him/Abram, God went up from Abraham."

Also keep in mind that God the Father cannot be seen physically with the eyes. John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46 and 1 Timothy 6:16. I have a question for you? Would you say that the same being, the angel of the Lord) who appeared to Hagar and multiplied her descendants is the same being here at Genesis 17 that multiplied Abrahams descendants?

I say yes because the angel of the Lord is not Michael the arc angel but the pre incarnate Jesus Christ who is the messenger of the Lord. The angel of the Lord also appeared in Genesis 18 and he appeared to Abraham there along with two actual angels, just read the text. Take special note of Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He/God finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed; and Abraham returned to his place. One more note, Genesis 19:1, "Now the TWO angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate etc."

Were almost done here but first on to Genesis 22. The Lord tested Abraham and ask him to sacrifice his son Isaac. At Genesis 22:10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." Verse 11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, Here I am." Verse 12, "And he said, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." At verses 12-13 the Lord provides Abraham a ram for him to sacrifice.

Genesis 22:15, "Then the angel of the Lord called out to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your only son, vs17, indeed, I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars are of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of your enemies. vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have OBEYED MY VOICE."

The extremely important thing to note is the angel of the Lord swore the oath to Abraham. This proves that Jesus Christ is not Michael the arc angel because angels cannot swear oaths. And to put the icing on the cake so to speak the following is what the writer of Hebrews 6:13-14 states. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF., vs14, saying I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." So, angels cannot only multiply descendants that cannot swear an oath on behalf of God because angels or anyone else for that matter is greater than God Himself. I'm open to any question/questions anybody wants to ask. I know the answers because I've heard all the questions that one can dream up. Does all of this make sense?

In Him,
herman
 

Norga

New member
All those instance who have mentioned deal with the angle of the Lord who is Jesus Christ who is Michael.
Michael is the angel of His Presence.
He is the angel who was in the pillar of cloud
Exodus 23:21,22

“Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

The Prince of Jehovah's army
Johsua 5:14

To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince* of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?”

The Prince of who stands on behalf of Daniels People
Daniel 12:4

“During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape,+ everyone who is found written down in the book.
 

herman

Member
Wow Norga, is this the best you got? You never addressed one word of what I posted, why? Instead you just gave a couple of verses that you think shows that Jesus Christ is Michael the arc angel. First of all when you say Jesus is Michael your advocating that Jesus is two different/distinct persons ontologically speaking. In other words, Jesus Christ cannot be God and an actual angel all at the same time.

Although, the one person of Jesus Christ can be God and human at the same time, why? It's because Jesus was sent from heaven and became a human being. (John 6:33, John 8:23, John 17:5, 24 just to name a few. This is also verified at Philippians 2:5-8 where it says Jesus who was already in the form of God humbled Himself and took on another form of that of a human being. It could not be more clear.

Now, you quoted Exodus 23:21-22. Did you really read the verses with understanding? Look closely at verse 21, the part where it says "he will not pardon your transgressions, why? Because My name is in him." Who can forgive sins but God alone Norga? Mark 2:7, "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

Moreover, getting back to Exodus 23:21-22 please read what it say at Exodus 14:19, "And the angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them." And look at Exodus 13:21, "AND THE LORD was going before them, in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night."

And what did the Apostle Paul say at 1 Corinthians 10:1-4. Take special note of verse 4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which FOLLOWED them and the rock was Christ." You want more proof as to the identity of the angel of the Lord? Exodus 3:1-4, starting at verse 4, "And the angel of the Lord appeared to him/Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. So Moses said, I must turn aside now, and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up. Vs4, "When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, GOD CALLED TO HIM FROM THE MIDST OF THE BUSH, and said, Moses, Moses, And he said, Here I am."

In conclusion, you just ran out of excuses on this issue. You cannot refute one word of what the Bible says. You need to look into yourself and be honest with yourself instead of being in "spiritual" denial of these clear facts. Keep in mind all of this has "eternal" consequences for where your going to spend eternity. Btw, you should know that God the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. to see the Son is to see the ESSENCE of the Father. (John 1:1,18; John 12:45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3).

In Him,
herman
 
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