Jesus' person is not God,
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OldShepherd
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Jesus' person is not God, He is begotten from God and unified with Him through the Holy Spirit which is illustrated in Isaiah 42:1. Jesus is God through His union with God, that is the Biblical Trinity that is supported 100% by the scriptures.
There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence,with God, before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:[inndent]
[Character limit. Continued next post.]
OldShepherd
Well-known member
[Previous post continued]
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not something to be used to His advantage the being[present, active infinitive] equal with God:[The being equal to God was a then and there reality not something considered and declined.]
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[If Jesus is not God and savior in vs,1 He is not Lord and savior in vs. 11. Same grammatical construction]
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6][/indent]
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not something to be used to His advantage the being[present, active infinitive] equal with God:[The being equal to God was a then and there reality not something considered and declined.]
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[If Jesus is not God and savior in vs,1 He is not Lord and savior in vs. 11. Same grammatical construction]
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6][/indent]
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Incomprehensible statement.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
Biblican
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In order for Jesus' soul to be the offering for our sins,(Isaiah 53:10) it would have to be a distinct, begotten entity from the Father. Therefore Jesus' soul was begotten or birthed. Anyone who is birthed must come from a pre-existing substance and Jesus' soul was begotten from the pre-existing substance of God's Spirit prior to His incarnation and unified with God's Spirit making them one. God did not beget a second God, but the perfect image of Himself because He will not give His glory to another. Jesus' soul unified with God's Holy Spirit was placed in Mary's body and the Holy Spirit that animates Jesus' soul also animated His human body. Jesus said, "As the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself" John 5:26, which is a quality that only God can have. The Apostle Paul recognized the distinction between the breath of life that animated Adam and the Holy Spirit that is Jesus. "And so it is written, the first Adam was made a living soul. The last Adam was made a quickening (Greek, zoopieo -life giving) spirit" (I Corinthians 15:45). The Holy Spirit is Jesus' Spirit as the Apostles recognized (Romans 8:8,9). Therefore, Jesus' soul unified with His body makes Him fully human, His Spirit unified with His soul makes Him fully God through His union with God by the One Spirit that is God the Father. For a more detailed explanation there is a free ebook here - https://www.cafelogos.org/trinityebook.html
If you denote God as the Father, Jesus's person is not God. If you denote anything of God by the word "God," then Jesus is God, just as the angels referred to themselves as YHWH in the Old Testament. In regard to how we should view Jesus, Ps 8:5, "You made him a little lower than the angels." I prefer "son of God," just as Jesus taught.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
So you agree with Biblican that “Jesus' person is not God.”
Is there ANY Trinitarian on this forum who DISAGREES with them?
I am trying to determine if it would be accurate for me to say “Trinitarians believe Jesus’ person is not God.”
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eternomade
Well-known member
He said he "definitely" disagrees.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
Ok. I forgot I asked “disagrees”. 👍
So are there other Trinitarians who AGREE with Biblican’s statement?
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Thus He was still God with all His Divine attributes, though He did not always display them.
johnny guitar
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Did not know according to His HUMANITY.
Biblican
Well-known member
Nope, because the Holy Spirit we get is not our life source as it was with Jesus. Our bodies are given life by the breath, the nashamah in Hebrew, same as Adam. Jesus' was given life by the Holy Spirit which makes Him divine. That is why He said, "As the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself." John 5:26.
Biblican
Well-known member
Jesus' person is the begotten image of God. In order for His soul to take our sins it would have to be a distinct begotten entity from the Father, (He always pre-existed within the Father before He was begotten) but because His Spirit is God's Spirit He is one with the Father. This solves the riddle of John 1:1. Jesus was with God, meaning that His begotten soul is distinct, but He is God because they are the same Spirit. What you have to do to understand this is study how the scriptures use the words soul and spirit and understand the distinctions between them. The word soul is only used in the scriptures in association with God and Jesus, never the Holy Spirit, and that is because the Spirit is their Spirit and the element that unifies the persons of the Father and Son. So if we want to use the egg as an example of the Tri-unity of the Three, we can say the yolk is God's person, the Holy Spirit is the egg white that connects the yolk to the shell which is God's image. Jesus is the fullness of the God head bodily and the image of what cannot be seen the yolk and the egg white. There is no fourth element anywhere in scripture that links the three together it has to be God's Holy Spirit. God has designed the spirit to operate with the soul, therefore the person of the Holy Spirit has to be the person of the Father and the Son operating together as one through one Spirit.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
I agree, but I do not consider myself a Trinitarian.
But I am curious...
Do you consider yourself a Trinitarian?
Biblican
Well-known member
I consider myself to be a Biblical Trinitarian because the definition I use comes directly from the scriptures and not from any man-inspired definitions. The word trinity comes from the Latin word trinitas which means a union of three and that's what it is, a union of God the Father who is two, soul/person and Spirit with the messiah Jesus. It's not complicated at all if we just look at the scriptures and avoid the man-inspired philosophy. The beautiful point that is missed through all of the discussions about it is the fact that it all has to do with salvation. God birthed the Messiah specifically to redeem our souls, so the God that is two became three in order to save us. We cannot be saved without the Three - God's person wills our salvation, Jesus purchases it and the Spirit seals it
OldShepherd
Well-known member
Read Philippians 2:6-11 and you might be able to understand why Jesus at some point did not know something.
I disagree although maybe it is just that I don't understand his context.
I would say Jesus' person is God but is just not the Father. His human nature was begotten from Mary but His divine nature is God ie the Word.
Jesus is God ie the Word under the influence of the non-omniscient human senses/nature while still otherwise omnisciently upholding the universe. The hypostatic union.
Jesus' soul is non-divine but the awareness in His soul is the divine Word as opposed to a created "the word" as other humans have.
If Jesus were merely God by union with God then that would be two united persons ie a human and the divine Word conjoined as one ie Nestorianism.
What you are saying is that if Jesus be credited with two "natures," a human and a divine, then it forces the conclusion that he was God, because his divine nature cannot and does never stop being "God." Yet by analogy with the ordinary human being commanded to put on the divine nature, this logic is fallible. For no ordinary human being can become "God" just by partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) or by becoming Christ-like. The hypostatic invites the question, "if humans can participate in the divine nature without a hypostatic union, why was the hypostatic union required in the case of Christ?"
The perspective of the two "natures" is an artificial one and irrelevant because the divine and the human natures can become fused, uncontroversially so, even in an adopted son of God.
The real issue concerns "persons" i.e. hypostases. The hypostatic union is fraught with internal contradiction. It wants to credit Jesus as a God-man, even God the Son, but from the way in which it is theorized, it must posit two, albeit "joined," living entities within Christ to preserve the "God the Son" epithet coming down from heaven and being born in a human body with human soul, which is in no sense akin to an ordinary human being. And just how do two jurisdictionally separate entities become "one person." Isn't that a fraud on the intellect? Why did Jesus make no mention of it?
For he said "I am from above." John 2:23. So for Jesus there was just the one person, the divinely originated person, and yet a human person at the same time. For Jesus distinguished himself from humanity by asserting that his (single) person was "from above." If the hypostatic union was true, he would have been obligated to say ""I am from above and from below." Note that he could adopt the human nature to become a human person without relinquishing his divinity, for the human nature was secondary, and adopted. Jesus makes that clear, by referring to his body as a temple that could be destroyed.
Nestorius and his teaching and what Nestorianism really denotes are entangled in misrepresentation and in misunderstanding. The uncontroversial aspect is that he substituted the prosopic union, the union of faces, or manifestations of the hypostasis, for the hypostatic union (the fusion of human and divine hypostases into one).
Nestorius himself was in a difficult position in maintaining the orthodox verbiage of the Nicene crede, yet desirous also of stressing Jesus' humanity which, although the Nicene creed does do this,, in the sense it affirms his incarnation in a formal manner, in contradicts itself by stressing that the "son of God" is "God from God and begotten of God before all worlds" i.e. not in any sense human. This is extra-biblical language, for in John 1:1 says that the "word is God" (and not "the word is the son of God"). So the Nicene creed uses the term "son of God" in a way that the bible does not.
Nestorius taught that Jesus reveals the face of God, but also the face of a human being. The two faces are distinguishable and yet conjoined in the one person (hypostasis). Nestorius taught that is imperative to emphasize Jesus's humanity, as is done throughout the first chapters of Acts. For this reason "Jesus is the (human) son of God" is much to be prefered over "Jesus is God." It is so very regretable that the Ninene creed effectively abolished his title "son of God" by rendering it subordinate to the "God the son" motif, so that in "orthodoxy" it became seen as heretical to affirm Jesus as just the "son of God."
Moreover calling Jesus a human person doesn't deny his divine origin, as Jesus himself taught, where it was he himself who called himself the "son of man."
E.g. Acts 3:22 For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you."
So in consequence, I cannot seen that Jesus the man should be called God, which is really no more than deference to and enforcement of the Nicene tradition of God begetting the "son of God" in heaven. Many would rank the idea of God begetting another (son of) God in heaven as a carry-over from Greek paganism, where that idea was already well established before Christ.
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Yes.
The divine nature for Christians is participating in divine behavioral experience, not in being a divine nature.
Christ's divine nature is actual ie not just behavioral nature.
In Christ the human and divine nature are in juxtaposition, not fused.
Maybe not ordinary but a human being nonetheless. Having a human awareness and perspective in and due to a human nature/body constitutes a human person.
It is not two persons becoming one person ie becoming a third nature Eutychianism, it is the divine person subjectively experiencing non-omniscient human awareness and perspective due to the human senses/nature like all human beings.
The Word is from above while the humanity is subjectively non-omniscient.
That is the case and what I believe.
Nestorianism teaches two persons, ie a divine person and a human person in a sort of lockstep union.
The s(S)on of God is one person but His humanity was contributed from Mary and His divinity was contributed from God.
The creeds are not inerrent. But the Biblical presentation is that the "son of God" is a human being but the fact that the Word is God that became flesh and He had no human Father implies that the human being was nonetheless divine.
But again, a son is actually only half each of the parents. In Jesus' case God contributed to His divinity (the person part) and Mary contributed to His humanity (the body and subjective non-omniscient humanity).
I agree.
Jesus was a human being and did come from among the people ie from the human being like Moses. But apparently it didn't prevent Him from being otherwise different than Moses ie born of a virgin and rose from the dead. So it shouldn't prevent other differences like being a man none other than God.
God engendering the existence of a whole other person all in heaven would be paganism.
But the intent is not a coming into existence of a new person in heaven but an unveiling of the existence of the Word.