Jesus pierced, YHWH pierced.

[Towerwatchman]

Jesus pierced, YHWH pierced.

The following was recorded by the Apostle John. At the crucifixion Jesus was pierced through the side with a spear. John identifies this as fulfilled prophecy, by quoting from the prophet Zachariah.

Jn 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

John is quoting Zech 12:10

Zec 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Who is “Me” in the text? [First person singular]. Vs 1 identifies who is speaking, ‘Thus says the Lord “YHWH”.

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD {YHWH} against Israel. Thus says the LORD {YHWH}, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

In the OT it is YHWH who states He will be pierced. In the NT John identifies Jesus as the one who is pierced and ties Jesus back to Zechariah. By doing this John is stating that Jesus is YHWH.

 

[Photine]

Yep. Jesus is Yhwh. Now prove the trinity.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Towerwatchman,

Jesus pierced, YHWH pierced.

Yes, Jesus represents Yahweh and Jesus is the principal fulfillment of the Yahweh Name "He who will be". The NT equivalent of this is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yahchristian]

In the OT it is YHWH who states He will be pierced. In the NT John identifies Jesus as the one who is pierced and ties Jesus back to Zechariah. By doing this John is stating that Jesus is YHWH.

I agree !!!

Whereas others on this forum believe John is stating that Jesus is YHWH Jr.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Greetings Towerwatchman,

Yes, Jesus represents Yahweh and Jesus is the principal fulfillment of the Yahweh Name "He who will be". The NT equivalent of this is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

How do you reconcile the highlighted with Titus 2:13 and 2Pe 1:1 where Jesus is identified as Ho Theos which is equivalent to YHWH.

 

[Yahchristian]

Ho Theos which is equivalent to YHWH.

I agree !!!

Whereas others on this forum believe sometimes Ho Theos is equivalent to YHWH Sr. and sometimes Ho Theos is equivalent to YHWH Jr.

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings Towerwatchman,

Yes, Jesus represents Yahweh and Jesus is the principal fulfillment of the Yahweh Name "He who will be". The NT equivalent of this is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

Our Lord Jesus Christ is BOTH Man and God, a MAN by birth, God as The eternal Son.

 

[johnny guitar]

I agree !!!

Whereas others on this forum believe sometimes Ho Theos is equivalent to YHWH Sr. and sometimes Ho Theos is equivalent to YHWH Jr.

Asinine comment. There is NO YHWH Sr. or Jr.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Towerwatchman,

How do you reconcile the highlighted with Titus 2:13 and 2Pe 1:1 where Jesus is identified as Ho Theos which is equivalent to YHWH.

Titus 2:13 (KJV): Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Jesus reveals God, but is not the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. When Jesus appears, God is revealed through him.

2 Peter 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
A simple comparison between verse 1 and 2 shows the distinction between the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ who is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Also a simple comparison between 2 Peter 1:1 and every other introduction to the NT letters show that the One God, God the Father is distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
1 Peter 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Romans 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort

Galatians 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 (KJV): To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house: 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 John 1:3 (KJV): That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2 John 3 (KJV): Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Theophilus]

Asinine comment. There is NO YHWH Sr. or Jr.

Exactly

 

[Andreas]

Greetings Towerwatchman,

Titus 2:13 (KJV): Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Jesus reveals God, but is not the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. When Jesus appears, God is revealed through him.

2 Peter 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
A simple comparison between verse 1 and 2 shows the distinction between the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ who is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Also a simple comparison between 2 Peter 1:1 and every other introduction to the NT letters show that the One God, God the Father is distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
1 Peter 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Romans 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort

Galatians 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 (KJV): To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house: 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 John 1:3 (KJV): That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2 John 3 (KJV): Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus is called THE FIRST in Revelation 1:17.

A mere man can't be THE FIRST. All these sort of discussions always come down to you guys showing verses where Jesus is a man.

Who are all these people you are talking to that actually don't believe that Jesus was a man? None? Anyone? Maybe one? Given the fact that no one is denying that Jesus was a man, what is your point?

What you need to show from scripture is that Jesus is not also God, because He is THE FIRST and only God is THE FIRST. Not "a first", but THE FIRST.


You are suffering from the odd quirk of human thinking that two things can't both be true at the same time.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Andreas,

Jesus is called THE FIRST in Revelation 1:17. A mere man can't be THE FIRST. What you need to show from scripture is that Jesus is not also God, because He is THE FIRST and only God is THE FIRST. Not "a first", but THE FIRST.

Yes, initially a difficult subject, but my introduction to the subject of God Manifestation is given in my thread "The Yahweh Name".

All these sort of discussions always come down to you guys showing verses where Jesus is a man. Who are all these people you are talking to that actually don't believe that Jesus was a man? None? Anyone? Maybe one? Given the fact that no one is denying that Jesus was a man, what is your point?

I consider that Jesus was and is a man, a specially prepared man, the Son of God, not a God-man, not God the Son. Can you explain how Jesus increased in wisdom and understanding? Did Jesus have two minds, one mind all knowing, the other learning?
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

You are suffering from the odd quirk of human thinking that two things can't both be true at the same time.

God has given us a mind that can compare things that make sense and things that contradict each other. When was Jesus fully God, in the womb, or as an infant, or at the start of his ministry?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings Andreas,

Yes, initially a difficult subject, but my introduction to the subject of God Manifestation is given in my thread "The Yahweh Name".

I consider that Jesus was and is a man, a specially prepared man, the Son of God, not a God-man, not God the Son. Can you explain how Jesus increased in wisdom and understanding? Did Jesus have two minds, one mind all knowing, the other learning?
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

God has given us a mind that can compare things that make sense and things that contradict each other. When was Jesus fully God, in the womb, or as an infant, or at the start of his ministry?

Kind regards
Trevor

Indeed, Jesus has TWO minds.
Jesus was God from the instant of His conception.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings johnny guitar,

Indeed, Jesus has TWO minds. Jesus was God from the instant of His conception.

In the realm of thinking, you have a vivid imagination, and how you imagine that this is possible is outside of my thoughts and my reasoning. Was Jesus as God the Son locked up in the womb of Mary for 9 months? Did the thinking of Jesus switch back and forth from that of a child to that of God, and was the mind of Jesus as a child educated from without, by his parents and God his father, or by direct switching to his Divine mind?

I am not interested in discussing your unsubstantiated one line statements.

I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings johnny guitar,

In the realm of thinking, you have a vivid imagination, and how you imagine that this is possible is outside of my thoughts and my reasoning. Was Jesus as God the Son locked up in the womb of Mary for 9 months? Did the thinking of Jesus switch back and forth from that of a child to that of God, and was the mind of Jesus as a child educated from without, by his parents and God his father, or by direct switching to his Divine mind?

I am not interested in discussing your unsubstantiated one line statements.

I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes, He was God in the womb of His mother. Matthew 1:23.
NOTHING of Jesus switched back and forth.
The Lord is God and vice versa.
NO such thing as THE Lord who is man ONLY.

 

[Andreas]

Greetings Andreas,

Yes, initially a difficult subject, but my introduction to the subject of God Manifestation is given in my thread "The Yahweh Name".

I consider that Jesus was and is a man, a specially prepared man, the Son of God, not a God-man, not God the Son. Can you explain how Jesus increased in wisdom and understanding? Did Jesus have two minds, one mind all knowing, the other learning?
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

God has given us a mind that can compare things that make sense and things that contradict each other. When was Jesus fully God, in the womb, or as an infant, or at the start of his ministry?

Kind regards
Trevor

Again, no one is denying that Jesus is a man, so every scripture you use to show he is a man, I ALSO USE TO SHOW HE IS A MAN. So, what is your point? It's like everyone believes the sky is blue on a clear day and you keep showing pictures of a blue sky to prove that the sky is blue.

The Bible says Jesus is God in MANY places and ways. That he is THE FIRST is not given to us for you to wring your hands and find a way to dismiss that only God is THE FIRST.

So you have a choice: Admit that Jesus is THE FIRST and therefore He is God. Can anyone else be THE FIRST, but God?

Or, continue to ignore it by posting scriptures about how Jesus is man, which no one denies.

When the eternal, transcendent, immanent, omnipotent, all-knowing, everywhere present, immutable, God, who is a Spirit being, was manifested in the flesh, He existed simultaneously as He always has and also as a genuine man.

Do you have trouble reconciling situations where two facts can both be true?

When you think of omnipotence what is one thing that you don't think omnipotence is? Limited, right? But, true omnipotence has to be able to choose to be limited if indeed omnipotence is truly omnipotent. God demonstrated his true omnipotence by being simultaneously all-powerful as He always has but limited within the scope of his manifestation as an authentic man. That this authentic man, whom God became, had to grow in wisdom is genuine. Everything that we can say about ourselves, Christ could say about himself except he had no sin.

You will need to explain why God, who is all powerful, wouldn't be able to exist simultaneously as a genuine man and as He always has. Colossians 2:8 warns against empty philosophy which views God as nothing more than earthly elements and components. If you think of God as a sort of big guy who is in a high place who is sending out a force field, you are not in the Bible.

As a side note, it looks like you want to emphasize the name "Yahweh". Does it bother you that the name is never used by Jesus or any Apostle or anyone in the entire New Testament? Is it ironic that you use a name that is NEVER mentioned in the NT, but deny all the scriptures that clearly and boldly teach Jesus is God?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Andreas,

Again, no one is denying that Jesus is a man, so every scripture you use to show he is a man, I ALSO USE TO SHOW HE IS A MAN. So, what is your point? It's like everyone believes the sky is blue on a clear day and you keep showing pictures of a blue sky to prove that the sky is blue.

My point is that I consider that a man is limited and has various attributes which are less than God. Jesus is not an ordinary man, but a special man, prepared by God for the special work of salvation, and I confess that Jesus is a man, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

The Bible says Jesus is God in MANY places and ways. That he is THE FIRST is not given to us for you to wring your hands and find a way to dismiss that only God is THE FIRST.
So you have a choice: Admit that Jesus is THE FIRST and therefore He is God. Can anyone else be THE FIRST, but God?

I have in part already given an answer to your claim. To use an example, in understanding any subject there is a starting point, then a gradual development and then a more thorough knowledge. If you want to fully understand a specialised part of mathematics, you need to start with the basics and gradually understand the full development. You need to understand basic Algebra before you can solve "Ordinary Differential Equations", and if you start with ODE then it looks very complicated and difficult, but a complex subject can be understood. There were two classes when I did ODE about 30 students in each class, and our lecturer seemed very confusing. One of my classmates suggested that we purchase a book something like Teach Yourself ODEs. Both of us passed the final exam, and none of the rest of our class passed. All of the other class passed.

When you think of omnipotence what is one thing that you don't think omnipotence is? Limited, right?

You have written here in these paragraphs much rhetoric, and that is acceptable as you feel strongly about this subject, but I do not not feel that it really helps to convince me. If anything, like with the ODE teacher, I am more confused.

As a side note, it looks like you want to emphasize the name "Yahweh". Does it bother you that the name is never used by Jesus or any Apostle or anyone in the entire New Testament? Is it ironic that you use a name that is NEVER mentioned in the NT, but deny all the scriptures that clearly and boldly teach Jesus is God?

I suggest that a good starting point is Exodus 3 and the revelation by the Angel of the LORD in the bush, starting with Exodus 3:1 and going down to say Exodus 3:15. Another starting point could be Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 as we would start with our junior Sunday School students, and these teach that Jesus is a human, The Son of God by birth. I should imagine most Trinitarians start with John 1:1,14, 8:58, 10:30 and then jump to Revelation 1, the first and the last. I learnt about the subject of the Yahweh Name when I was 19, and I remember it because we went to a Young Peoples' weekend in the Southern Highlands, and I also started courting my future wife. That was 60 years ago, and both of these I like to label my "first love" and I have grown and been enriched by my understanding and association with both of these.

One of my favourite OT/NT developments of this subject is where Jesus quotes/alludes/expounds Psalm 8:
Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I have quoted the Matthew passage in full, as it such a delight, but what I want to emphasise is that Jesus addresses Yahweh, the Creator of heaven and earth of Psalm 8, as "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth". Like many subjects, Jesus in one sentence summarises and clarifies what at first seems a complicated subject. The NT is clear that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. The NT equivalent of the Yahweh Name is that there is One God, the Father and that He has had a Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and we do not need to understand Hebrew to appreciate this development and this NT concept completely simplifies the subject and this expression "God the Father" is able to be translated and understood in every language of the Gentiles. Like many aspects, Jesus condenses in a few words profound truths.

Concerning the NT usage of the word God as applied to Jesus, I suggest that we would need to discuss Jesus' answer to the Jews who objected to his statement of John 10:30. He includes a reference to Psalm 82:6 which I believe is speaking about the fact that the Judges in Israel are called "gods" or "Elohim", and Jesus also answers in John 10:36 that he was claiming to be the Son of God. Another line to consider is why with the many appearances of Angels they are addressed as "Elohim", in the English "God". Is the NT usage any different, for example John 20:28?

How do you reconcile the highlighted with Titus 2:13 and 2Pe 1:1 where Jesus is identified as Ho Theos which is equivalent to YHWH.

Towerwatchman asked a similar question, and he has not replied to the long list of references that I supplied in Post #9 that distinguish between the One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. How do you understand these verses?

Seeing Towerwatchman likes quoting from 2nd Peter chapter 1, another aspect is the subject of the transfiguration, when Jesus was revealed in glory. I find it interesting the expression that Peter uses concerning what Peter heard, and how he describes the source of this:
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Peter had witnessed the glory of Jesus, but he describes the glory of the Father as "the excellent glory". The "Excellent Glory" stated that Jesus is the Son of God, and as such he is not God the Son and is not equal in glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Towerwatchman]

Greetings again Andreas,

My point is that I consider that a man is limited and has various attributes which are less than God. Jesus is not an ordinary man, but a special man, prepared by God for the special work of salvation, and I confess that Jesus is a man, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

I have in part already given an answer to your claim. To use an example, in understanding any subject there is a starting point, then a gradual development and then a more thorough knowledge. If you want to fully understand a specialised part of mathematics, you need to start with the basics and gradually understand the full development. You need to understand basic Algebra before you can solve "Ordinary Differential Equations", and if you start with ODE then it looks very complicated and difficult, but a complex subject can be understood. There were two classes when I did ODE about 30 students in each class, and our lecturer seemed very confusing. One of my classmates suggested that we purchase a book something like Teach Yourself ODEs. Both of us passed the final exam, and none of the rest of our class passed. All of the other class passed.

You have written here in these paragraphs much rhetoric, and that is acceptable as you feel strongly about this subject, but I do not not feel that it really helps to convince me. If anything, like with the ODE teacher, I am more confused.

I suggest that a good starting point is Exodus 3 and the revelation by the Angel of the LORD in the bush, starting with Exodus 3:1 and going down to say Exodus 3:15. Another starting point could be Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 as we would start with our junior Sunday School students, and these teach that Jesus is a human, The Son of God by birth. I should imagine most Trinitarians start with John 1:1,14, 8:58, 10:30 and then jump to Revelation 1, the first and the last. I learnt about the subject of the Yahweh Name when I was 19, and I remember it because we went to a Young Peoples' weekend in the Southern Highlands, and I also started courting my future wife. That was 60 years ago, and both of these I like to label my "first love" and I have grown and been enriched by my understanding and association with both of these.

One of my favourite OT/NT developments of this subject is where Jesus quotes/alludes/expounds Psalm 8:
Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I have quoted the Matthew passage in full, as it such a delight, but what I want to emphasise is that Jesus addresses Yahweh, the Creator of heaven and earth of Psalm 8, as "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth". Like many subjects, Jesus in one sentence summarises and clarifies what at first seems a complicated subject. The NT is clear that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. The NT equivalent of the Yahweh Name is that there is One God, the Father and that He has had a Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and we do not need to understand Hebrew to appreciate this development and this NT concept completely simplifies the subject and this expression "God the Father" is able to be translated and understood in every language of the Gentiles. Like many aspects, Jesus condenses in a few words profound truths.

Concerning the NT usage of the word God as applied to Jesus, I suggest that we would need to discuss Jesus' answer to the Jews who objected to his statement of John 10:30. He includes a reference to Psalm 82:6 which I believe is speaking about the fact that the Judges in Israel are called "gods" or "Elohim", and Jesus also answers in John 10:36 that he was claiming to be the Son of God. Another line to consider is why with the many appearances of Angels they are addressed as "Elohim", in the English "God". Is the NT usage any different, for example John 20:28?

Towerwatchman asked a similar question, and he has not replied to the long list of references that I supplied in Post #9 that distinguish between the One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. How do you understand these verses?

Seeing Towerwatchman likes quoting from 2nd Peter chapter 1, another aspect is the subject of the transfiguration, when Jesus was revealed in glory. I find it interesting the expression that Peter uses concerning what Peter heard, and how he describes the source of this:
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Peter had witnessed the glory of Jesus, but he describes the glory of the Father as "the excellent glory". The "Excellent Glory" stated that Jesus is the Son of God, and as such he is not God the Son and is not equal in glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

Just because Peter describes the fathers glory as the excellent glory, doesn’t equate that Jesus is not God or his glory is not excellent. you would be positive proof for that.
Such as below.
Philippians, 2:6 equal translate from isos which means equal in quality and quantity. Paul states that Jesus being is equal to God in quality and quantity.

As for your interpretation of 2 Peter 1:1 is wrong. Nothing in the text hits to glory being described. Glory is not mentioned. You are inferring it to the text, what is not there.

 

[johnny guitar]

Greetings again Andreas,

My point is that I consider that a man is limited and has various attributes which are less than God. Jesus is not an ordinary man, but a special man, prepared by God for the special work of salvation, and I confess that Jesus is a man, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

I have in part already given an answer to your claim. To use an example, in understanding any subject there is a starting point, then a gradual development and then a more thorough knowledge. If you want to fully understand a specialised part of mathematics, you need to start with the basics and gradually understand the full development. You need to understand basic Algebra before you can solve "Ordinary Differential Equations", and if you start with ODE then it looks very complicated and difficult, but a complex subject can be understood. There were two classes when I did ODE about 30 students in each class, and our lecturer seemed very confusing. One of my classmates suggested that we purchase a book something like Teach Yourself ODEs. Both of us passed the final exam, and none of the rest of our class passed. All of the other class passed.

You have written here in these paragraphs much rhetoric, and that is acceptable as you feel strongly about this subject, but I do not not feel that it really helps to convince me. If anything, like with the ODE teacher, I am more confused.

I suggest that a good starting point is Exodus 3 and the revelation by the Angel of the LORD in the bush, starting with Exodus 3:1 and going down to say Exodus 3:15. Another starting point could be Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 as we would start with our junior Sunday School students, and these teach that Jesus is a human, The Son of God by birth. I should imagine most Trinitarians start with John 1:1,14, 8:58, 10:30 and then jump to Revelation 1, the first and the last. I learnt about the subject of the Yahweh Name when I was 19, and I remember it because we went to a Young Peoples' weekend in the Southern Highlands, and I also started courting my future wife. That was 60 years ago, and both of these I like to label my "first love" and I have grown and been enriched by my understanding and association with both of these.

One of my favourite OT/NT developments of this subject is where Jesus quotes/alludes/expounds Psalm 8:
Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I have quoted the Matthew passage in full, as it such a delight, but what I want to emphasise is that Jesus addresses Yahweh, the Creator of heaven and earth of Psalm 8, as "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth". Like many subjects, Jesus in one sentence summarises and clarifies what at first seems a complicated subject. The NT is clear that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. The NT equivalent of the Yahweh Name is that there is One God, the Father and that He has had a Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and we do not need to understand Hebrew to appreciate this development and this NT concept completely simplifies the subject and this expression "God the Father" is able to be translated and understood in every language of the Gentiles. Like many aspects, Jesus condenses in a few words profound truths.

Concerning the NT usage of the word God as applied to Jesus, I suggest that we would need to discuss Jesus' answer to the Jews who objected to his statement of John 10:30. He includes a reference to Psalm 82:6 which I believe is speaking about the fact that the Judges in Israel are called "gods" or "Elohim", and Jesus also answers in John 10:36 that he was claiming to be the Son of God. Another line to consider is why with the many appearances of Angels they are addressed as "Elohim", in the English "God". Is the NT usage any different, for example John 20:28?

Towerwatchman asked a similar question, and he has not replied to the long list of references that I supplied in Post #9 that distinguish between the One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. How do you understand these verses?

Seeing Towerwatchman likes quoting from 2nd Peter chapter 1, another aspect is the subject of the transfiguration, when Jesus was revealed in glory. I find it interesting the expression that Peter uses concerning what Peter heard, and how he describes the source of this:
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Peter had witnessed the glory of Jesus, but he describes the glory of the Father as "the excellent glory". The "Excellent Glory" stated that Jesus is the Son of God, and as such he is not God the Son and is not equal in glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus Christ was The Son of God and The Lord at conception, thus He was The Son of God and The Lord AT birth, NOT by birth.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Towerwatchman,

Just because Peter describes the fathers glory as the excellent glory, doesn’t equate that Jesus is not God or his glory is not excellent. you would be positive proof for that.

I understand Peter is describing the situation as it appeared to him during the Transfiguration. Jesus appeared in glory, a brilliant white, but when God spoke he describes Him as "the excellent glory". I consider that this has some element of comparison.

Such as below.
Philippians, 2:6 equal translate from isos which means equal in quality and quantity. Paul states that Jesus being is equal to God in quality and quantity.

I understand Philippians 2:6 is alluding to Genesis 1:26-27, and the comparison after this is the fact that Jesus did not grasp at equality with God, as did Adam and Eve.

As for your interpretation of 2 Peter 1:1 is wrong. Nothing in the text hits to glory being described. Glory is not mentioned. You are inferring it to the text, what is not there.

I was comparing the teaching of Peter in the other part of the chapter, that Peter was not teaching the Trinity. You mentioned 2 Peter 1:1 and how you interpret this:

How do you reconcile the highlighted with Titus 2:13 and 2Pe 1:1 where Jesus is identified as Ho Theos which is equivalent to YHWH.

My response to this was the following:

2 Peter 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
A simple comparison between verse 1 and 2 shows the distinction between the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ who is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

You have not responded to the above, and verse 2 disproves your claim. Also you have not responded to ALL the other verses that I quoted that distinguish between the One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

As far as the title of your thread is concerned, I would compare "Jesus pierced, YHWH pierced" with the following:
Acts 9:1–5 (KJV): 1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Yes when Jesus was pierced, Yahweh, God the Father in heaven was so identified and sympathetic with Jesus and his sufferings, that He felt pierced.

Kind regards
Trevor