Jesus' plea for the Father's forgiveness from the cross - question.

[squirrelyguy]

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Christ prayed this from the cross over people who were actively killing Him and who were not the least bit repentant about it.

In light of this, I have two questions for consideration:

1. Do you believe that the Father answered Jesus' prayer? I know the text doesn't say; but what do you think?

2. How should it inform our soteriology (if at all), by the fact that (at least on this one occasion) Christ used ignorance as a basis for which the Father ought to forgive sin?

 

[Stephen]

Luke 23:32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.​

In this case, I believe that the "them" being referenced by Christ is the Roman soldiers.

To answer your questions:

1. I believe that the father answered the prayer in the affirmative.
2. Yes. To whom much is given, much is expected.

 

[SteveB]

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Christ prayed this from the cross over people who were actively killing Him and who were not the least bit repentant about it.

In light of this, I have two questions for consideration:

1. Do you believe that the Father answered Jesus' prayer? I know the text doesn't say; but what do you think?

We're still alive aren't we?
Is God saving us from our sin, and freeing us to become Christ-like in our lives?

2. How should it inform our soteriology (if at all), by the fact that (at least on this one occasion) Christ used ignorance as a basis for which the Father ought to forgive sin?

Nope.... NOT ignorance.
Forgiveness.
According to Psalm 103, God casts our sin as far as the east is from the west.
In Micah 7:19 he says

You will cast all our sins
Into the depths of the sea.

there's a whole lot more on this.
This is not ignoring our sin. Jesus' death paid for our sin--- all sin, the sin of every single human being to ever have lived, all the way to all who every will live.

So, God isn't ignoring them, he's forgiving them. He's releasing us from the debt we owe him.
In 1 John 1:9 we read---

If we confess our sin, God is faithful (he can be relied upon), and Just to forgive our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Justice due sin was handled by Jesus' death. So God is totally just to forgive our sin, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness....
Not some, but ALL.

We then have Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is also quoted in Hebrews 10

God will not remember our sins, ever again.

For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

So.... and this cannot be overemphasized......

God does not ignore our sin. He forgives our sin. He cleanses us, he forgives us, he wipes our debt away.

 

[zerinus]

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Christ prayed this from the cross over people who were actively killing Him and who were not the least bit repentant about it.

In light of this, I have two questions for consideration:

1. Do you believe that the Father answered Jesus' prayer? I know the text doesn't say; but what do you think?

2. How should it inform our soteriology (if at all), by the fact that (at least on this one occasion) Christ used ignorance as a basis for which the Father ought to forgive sin?

I agree with Stephen, Jesus was praying for the Roman soldiers who were casting lot for his clothes. They were the ones who "know not what they do". The Jews who had falsely accused him and caused him to be crucified, and who were mocking him as he hung on the cross, knew perfectly well "what they do".

 

[UncleAbee]

There's many questions about this verse. My question is if the plan all along was for Jesus to be crucified then why ask God to forgive them? Weren't they following the plan? This passage is left out of many early copies of Luke's gospel. The early Christians had issues with Jesus asking God to forgive those who were crucifying Him (especially the Jews).

 

[brightfame52]

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Christ prayed this from the cross over people who were actively killing Him and who were not the least bit repentant about it.

In light of this, I have two questions for consideration:

1. Do you believe that the Father answered Jesus' prayer? I know the text doesn't say; but what do you think?

2. How should it inform our soteriology (if at all), by the fact that (at least on this one occasion) Christ used ignorance as a basis for which the Father ought to forgive sin?

Yes, many were converted on the day of pentecost. Also if Christ died for them, their sins were automatically forgiven for Christs sake Eph 4 32

and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings squirrelyguy,

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Christ prayed this from the cross over people who were actively killing Him and who were not the least bit repentant about it.
In light of this, I have two questions for consideration:
1. Do you believe that the Father answered Jesus' prayer? I know the text doesn't say; but what do you think?

Yes, God answered Jesus’ prayer, but not in a blanket forgiveness for those involved. God’s righteousness is declared in the crucifixion of Jesus, and those that do not ultimately believe and repent will not be forgiven, and this principle applies to those who were there at the time of the crucifixion and the same applies to us now.

2. How should it inform our soteriology (if at all), by the fact that (at least on this one occasion) Christ used ignorance as a basis for which the Father ought to forgive sin?

The sacrifices under the Law, looked forward to the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus. Under the Law there are sacrifices for sins of ignorance, and for sins, and for trespasses. There were many individuals, some directly, others indirectly responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus is asking God His Father to forgive those involved, but those involved are also representative of mankind in general and their sins are also typical of our sins. Our sins are forgiven by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus.

The thief on the cross at first reviled Jesus, but he later repented and asked to be remembered when Jesus returned in His Kingdom. The two thieves are in a sense also representative of two categories, those that believe and will be forgiven, and those who do not believe and will not be forgiven, but will be rejected.

So I suggest that Jesus is pleading to the Father to forgive the sins of us all, as we sin through ignorance, we sin sometimes almost deliberately and we trespass, but eventually some of us affectionately believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, we repent and acknowledge our sins and seek forgiveness and seek to live the crucified / resurrected life and we will be forgiven on the basis of the plea of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brightfame52]

Greetings squirrelyguy,

Yes, God answered Jesus’ prayer, but not in a blanket forgiveness for those involved. God’s righteousness is declared in the crucifixion of Jesus, and those that do not ultimately believe and repent will not be forgiven, and this principle applies to those who were there at the time of the crucifixion and the same applies to us now.

The sacrifices under the Law, looked forward to the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus. Under the Law there are sacrifices for sins of ignorance, and for sins, and for trespasses. There were many individuals, some directly, others indirectly responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus is asking God His Father to forgive those involved, but those involved are also representative of mankind in general and their sins are also typical of our sins. Our sins are forgiven by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus.

The thief on the cross at first reviled Jesus, but he later repented and asked to be remembered when Jesus returned in His Kingdom. The two thieves are in a sense also representative of two categories, those that believe and will be forgiven, and those who do not believe and will not be forgiven, but will be rejected.

So I suggest that Jesus is pleading to the Father to forgive the sins of us all, as we sin through ignorance, we sin sometimes almost deliberately and we trespass, but eventually some of us affectionately believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, we repent and acknowledge our sins and seek forgiveness and seek to live the crucified / resurrected life and we will be forgiven on the basis of the plea of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Those Christ died for are automatically forgiven of their sins simply because Christ died for them! And the ones He died for are exclusively His Sheep and not the other goats of mankind!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings brightfame52,

Those Christ died for are automatically forgiven of their sins simply because Christ died for them! And the ones He died for are exclusively His Sheep and not the other goats of mankind!

There is nothing automatic about the salvation in Christ. Jesus is set forth as crucified and those that believe in him will be saved. God is not a respecter of persons, but calls all to belief, repentance, forgiveness and salvation.
John 3:14-16 (KJV): 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The subject of forgiveness is incorporated in the whole subject of the salvation offered in Jesus, and the righteousness of God revealed and declared in his death and resurrection. Again justification is by faith, not by an arbitrary selection.
Romans 3:21-26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth. to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
The above also defines “grace”.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brightfame52]

Greetings brightfame52,

There is nothing automatic about the salvation in Christ. Jesus is set forth as crucified and those that believe in him will be saved. God is not a respecter of persons, but calls all to belief, repentance, forgiveness and salvation.
John 3:14-16 (KJV): 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The subject of forgiveness is incorporated in the whole subject of the salvation offered in Jesus, and the righteousness of God revealed and declared in his death and resurrection. Again justification is by faith, not by an arbitrary selection.
Romans 3:21-26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth. to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
The above also defines “grace”.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes it [forgiveness] is automatic, Christ did all the work! Do you suggest that His Work was not enough for God to forgive those He died for their sins?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again brightfame52,

Yes it [forgiveness] is automatic, Christ did all the work! Do you suggest that His Work was not enough for God to forgive those He died for their sins?

I suggest that the term “automatic” is not appropriate. We receive forgiveness when we have an affectionate belief in the death and resurrection of Christ. I recognise that what you are proposing is part of a larger agenda, and I reject your perspective. Please reconsider the verses that I quoted in the previous post as an answer to your position. You have not discussed these verses.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brightfame52]

Greetings again brightfame52,

I suggest that the term “automatic” is not appropriate. We receive forgiveness when we have an affectionate belief in the death and resurrection of Christ. I recognise that what you are proposing is part of a larger agenda, and I reject your perspective. Please reconsider the verses that I quoted in the previous post as an answer to your position. You have not discussed these verses.

Kind regards
Trevor

Say it like this, forgiveness of sins is effective immediately through the blood of Christ. It doesn't wait on the action of the sinner God forgives the sinners Christ died for for Christ sake and what He did for them. If you don't believe and understand that you are in the dark about forgiveness of sins.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again brightfame52,

Say it like this, forgiveness of sins is effective immediately through the blood of Christ. It doesn't wait on the action of the sinner God forgives the sinners Christ died for for Christ sake and what He did for them. If you don't believe and understand that you are in the dark about forgiveness of sins.

Forgiveness comes to the individual when he believes. Justification is by faith.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[brightfame52]

Greetings again brightfame52,

Forgiveness comes to the individual when he believes. Justification is by faith.

Kind regards
Trevor

Justification is by Faith but prior to that it is by the blood of Christ Rom 5 9 which faith received. You can not be justified by faith unless prior to you have been justified by the blood of Christ.!

 

[En Hakkore]

In this case, I believe that the "them" being referenced by Christ is the Roman soldiers.​

This reference point is debatable and the text itself is unstable in the manuscript tradition, presented in NA28 within double square brackets. It is missing from a number of key Greek witnesses such as Papyrus 75, Codices Vaticanus, Washingtonianus and Koridethi, as well as the Sinaitic Syriac and numerous Coptic manuscripts. It was originally absent in Codices Sinaiticus and Bezae, but added by correctors in both cases.

Its presence or absence probably hinges on who the 'them' is understood to be. If one follows the text beginning at 23:13 through to the passage in question (23:34), the agents of the crucifixion are not Roman soldiers, but the chief priests, leaders and the people. There is no explicit change of subject at the critical juncture in 23:25-26 --- Pilate hands Jesus over to their will and they lead him away, they place the cross on Simon of Cyrene, they crucify Jesus and the two criminals upon arriving at the place of execution. Soldiers are not introduced into the text until 23:36. At best Luke is ambiguous about their involvement, the real culprits in his gospel are the Jewish leaders and the mob. This is consistent with the indictment found in Acts 3:15 when Peter, addressing Israelite men, is narrated to say "you killed the author of life" and adds later that they and their leaders acted out of ignorance (3:17). It is important to note, in light of the OP's claim that those for whom Jesus' petitions for forgiveness are unrepentant, that Luke narrates that some of those listening believed Peter's preaching and were added to the number of believers (4:4), presumably repenting of their involvement in Jesus' death.

Returning to the disputed passage, my position is that it is original to Luke's gospel and was removed by scribes working in the second and third centuries during the time that the schism between Jews and Christians intensified, the deletions being part of the period's anti-Jewish polemics.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again brightfame52,

Justification is by Faith but prior to that it is by the blood of Christ Rom 5 9 which faith received. You can not be justified by faith unless prior to you have been justified by the blood of Christ.!

It is true that we are justified through the blood of Christ. I am not sure if you are claiming two different processes, as I accept that it is only one process. Abraham was justified by faith as mentioned in Genesis 15:6, many years before the death of Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[squirrelyguy]

Yes it [forgiveness] is automatic, Christ did all the work! Do you suggest that His Work was not enough for God to forgive those He died for their sins?

Forgiveness is not necessarily automatic. I think one could make a case that sometimes God forgives sins with no seeking on the part of the sinner; but this is not universally true. The parable of the unforgiving servant suggests that God makes forgiveness conditional on our forgiveness of others. In fact, if we are to take the details of the parable seriously, we must conclude that God will even revoke forgiveness already offered to someone who subsequently refuses to forgive another, and will reinstate his/her sin debt until they pay it in full.

 

[brightfame52]

Greetings again brightfame52,

It is true that we are justified through the blood of Christ. I am not sure if you are claiming two different processes, as I accept that it is only one process. Abraham was justified by faith as mentioned in Genesis 15:6, many years before the death of Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

Justification by Faith lays hold of being Justified by the Blood, its simple, its the same Justification ! However Justification by blood precedes Justification by Faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Forgiveness is not necessarily automatic. I think one could make a case that sometimes God forgives sins with no seeking on the part of the sinner; but this is not universally true. The parable of the unforgiving servant suggests that God makes forgiveness conditional on our forgiveness of others. In fact, if we are to take the details of the parable seriously, we must conclude that God will even revoke forgiveness already offered to someone who subsequently refuses to forgive another, and will reinstate his/her sin debt until they pay it in full.

That parable misleads you, however forgiveness of sins is through Gods Grace, its not conditioned on the sinner at all Eph 1;7

in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1 14


in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

All the Elect Christ died for have effected on their behalf, through His Blood, redemption, even the forgiveness of sins, soley based on Grace !

 

[squirrelyguy]

That parable misleads you, however forgiveness of sins is through Gods Grace, its not conditioned on the sinner at all Eph 1;7

When you say that the parable misleads me, what do you mean? That you think the parable is mistaken, or that I'm just misunderstanding it? If I'm misunderstanding it, then what do you think it means?