Jesus, religion or reality......

[SteveB]

From part of a discussion about "christianity", or more accurately, what people think christianity is.....
versus Jesus.

And give the incoherent nature of Christianity with regards to a God who tortures billions for failing to love him against the claims God is loving, merciful and compassionate, I do not think Christianity is true.

YOU THINK..... you know what you're talking about.
I didn't come to Jesus because I liked christianity. I was quite clear in my perspective.... I thought christianity was "just another pile of religious bs."

So, stop thinking you know so much and back off, and actually learn the truth.

I have never actually met a single person who came to Jesus because they liked christianity as the collection of religious ideas it's become over the past 1800 years.

Every single person who I've known who follows Jesus has come to Jesus, because of Jesus.

I definitely do not believe in Jesus because I think christianity is a great idea, let alone stick around because of the collection of beliefs and ideas of what christianity has become.

I follow Jesus because of Jesus. So I'd encourage you to step back and take a good hard look at Jesus himself.

 

[The Pixie]

From part of a discussion about "christianity", or more accurately, what people think christianity is.....
versus Jesus.

So far no one has explained that apparent contradiction.

YOU THINK..... you know what you're talking about.

Right. And YOU THINK you know what you are talking about.

So what is your point Steve? Are you saying I must be wrong because I qualified my statement with "I do not think..."?

I didn't come to Jesus because I liked christianity. I was quite clear in my perspective.... I thought christianity was "just another pile of religious bs."

So, stop thinking you know so much and back off, and actually learn the truth.

It is telling that this so-call "truth" is not present in your post. Nothing here about what Christianity is or whether its claim are true. And there never is!

I have never actually met a single person who came to Jesus because they liked christianity as the collection of religious ideas it's become over the past 1800 years.

There is not much to like about a religion that worships a god it claim sends billions to suffer for eternity.

Every single person who I've known who follows Jesus has come to Jesus, because of Jesus.

What does that actually mean? Because Jesus is a historical figure? Because of what, according to the gospels, Jesus said? Because you think you have a personal relationship with Jesus and he personally convinced you?

I follow Jesus because of Jesus. So I'd encourage you to step back and take a good hard look at Jesus himself.

The guy who send people to hell for eternity to punish them for not loving him? You want me to take a good hard look at him?

 

[Whatsisface]

From part of a discussion about "christianity", or more accurately, what people think christianity is.....
versus Jesus.



YOU THINK..... you know what you're talking about.
I didn't come to Jesus because I liked christianity. I was quite clear in my perspective.... I thought christianity was "just another pile of religious bs."

So, stop thinking you know so much and back off, and actually learn the truth.

I have never actually met a single person who came to Jesus because they liked christianity as the collection of religious ideas it's become over the past 1800 years.

Every single person who I've known who follows Jesus has come to Jesus, because of Jesus.

I definitely do not believe in Jesus because I think christianity is a great idea, let alone stick around because of the collection of beliefs and ideas of what christianity has become.

I follow Jesus because of Jesus. So I'd encourage you to step back and take a good hard look at Jesus himself.

That's an awfully large pile of your religion you've just swept under the carpet.

 

[SteveB]

That's an awfully large pile of your religion you've just swept under the carpet.

No actually.
The bible is quite clear about this.

Heb 12:1-2 WEB 1 Therefore let’s also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus himself authored the faith. He's going to perfect the faith.

As such, why would I want to spend my life following the people who are following Jesus when I can follow Jesus himself?

Or, worse still, follow the followers of the followers of the followers of the followers of the followers of the followers of the followers of the followers of the followers of the followers of Jesus, after the previous 15 iterations of the followers of Jesus?

One of my earlier pastors told us that God doesn't have grandchildren. He only has children
So, it's not that I've swept a lot of religion under the carpet. It's that I read the bible for myself and engaged God myself, through Jesus Christ, and while I learn about the history of the church, I throw out the garbage of the church, incorporate what has value and focus entirely on Jesus.
As the old saying goes.... don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The bathwater has grown dirty, and needs to be refreshed each generation. Everything that is needed to follow Jesus is contained in the bible. This is exactly what Jesus was saying when he said--

Mar 2:21-22 WEB 21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, or else the patch shrinks and the new tears away from the old, and a worse hole is made. 22 No one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the skins, and the wine pours out, and the skins will be destroyed; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins.”​

This is exactly what I and other Jesus followers are seeking to get you to consider.

We don't want you to follow the followers. We want you to actually follow Jesus himself.

That's what the gospel of Jesus is saying.

You aren't being invited to be a member of a social club known as a religious institution. I left the institution in 1971-2.
I was introduced to the man, Jesus, in 1977. So completely different I was astonished and completely surprised by love.

You're being invited to engage YHVH for yourself.

As the woman at the well in John 4 said...

Come see a man who told me everything about my life.

The use of the word, religion, in my op, is defined as the rules, regulations, human cultures built by humans to make sure they are following the followers and their principles of God.

The use of the word, reality, is the truth of Jesus in the real world, himself.

 

[SteveB]

So far no one has explained that apparent contradiction.

The apparent contradiction is the "traditions of men taught as the commandments of God."

Mat 15:7-9 WEB 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”

Right. And YOU THINK you know what you are talking about.

You're invited to read the bible for yourself and find out for yourself whether what I'm saying is true or not!
Exactly as Luke said regarding the Bereans, and Paul tells the Thessalonians.

Act 17:11 WEB Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

1Th 5:21-22 WEB 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

He describes a similar problem in Philippians 3.

Phi 3:7-21 WEB 7 However, I consider those things that were gain to me as a loss for Christ. 8 Yes most certainly, and I count all things to be a loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith, 10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death, 11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers, I don’t regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do: forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, think this way. If in anything you think otherwise, God will also reveal that to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the extent that we have already attained, let’s walk by the same rule. Let’s be of the same mind. 17 Brothers, be imitators together of me, and note those who walk this way, even as you have us for an example. 18 For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who think about earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working by which he is able even to subject all things to himself.

So what is your point Steve? Are you saying I must be wrong because I qualified my statement with "I do not think..."?

Actually, I want you to learn a different perspective. YHVH's perspective.

I want you to do what Jesus says.
Draw near with your heart, and follow him.
Don't follow the tradition of men, convoluted as the doctrines of God.
Learn by reading the bible, and then learn to apply the bible to your life.
Start with talking to YHVH, for yourself.

He's invited you to engage him on his terms.

Isa 1:18 WEB “Come now, and let’s reason together,” says Yahweh: “Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

He's gone so far as to call for the silence of those who are disturbing you.

Isa 41:1 WEB “Keep silent before me, islands, and let the peoples renew their strength. Let them come near, then let them speak. Let’s meet together for judgment.

Isa 41:21 WEB Produce your cause,” says Yahweh. “Bring out your strong reasons!” says the King of Jacob.

It is telling that this so-call "truth" is not present in your post. Nothing here about what Christianity is or whether its claim are true. And there never is!

Jesus is the truth.

Joh 14:6 WEB Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.

There is not much to like about a religion that worships a god it claim sends billions to suffer for eternity.

In other words, the only valid perspective is yours, but the truth, is wrong, no matter what!

What does that actually mean?

Exactly what it says.
God has said that he will give you a heart to know him.
Jesus makes us his siblings, and children of God.
This is exactly what the new birth is about.

Because Jesus is a historical figure?

Yes.

Because of what, according to the gospels, Jesus said?

Yes.

Because you think you have a personal relationship with Jesus and he personally convinced you?

Because YHVH is demonstrating himself as real and knowable through Jesus Christ to everyone who comes to him through Jesus Christ.

The guy who send people to hell for eternity to punish them for not loving him?

He doesn't send anyone to hell. Whoever ends up in hell, does so themselves.

You want me to take a good hard look at him?

I want you to consider that you are completely wrong about YHVH and Jesus and the bible, and take a good hard look at who they actually are, not what you think they are.

 

[Algernon]

I follow Jesus because of Jesus. So I'd encourage you to step back and take a good hard look at Jesus himself.

I encourage you to step back and take a good hard look at the words spoken by Jesus Himself while He preached HIS gospel.

"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12
“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." John 15

Note that he used the past tense in all of the above. Not words Jesus will speak. Not words that others will speak. But words Jesus has spoken.
It is the words spoken by Jesus while He preached HIS gospel that are spirit and life, that one will be judged by, that can make one clean.

John 8
"34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
"31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

As one who claims to "follow Jesus", shouldn't you abide in the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel? Only then can you be a true disciple, be made free from committing sin and thus made clean.

 

[SteveB]

I encourage you to step back and take a good hard look at the words spoken by Jesus Himself while He preached HIS gospel.

I have. For 44+ years.
Did you need me to see something specific?

"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6

Why, Yes!
Yes they are!

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12

Great words!
They bring life to those who believe Him!

“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." John 15

Pretty awesome to be cleansed by God and Jesus to have our consciences cleaned, and to be made whole!

Note that he used the past tense in all of the above.

Yep! Note too whom he was speaking to...
His disciples. Those who believe him and are following him.

Not words Jesus will speak.

Indeed!

Not words that others will speak. But words Jesus has spoken.

Yes indeed!!!!

It is the words spoken by Jesus while He preached HIS gospel that are spirit and life, that one will be judged by, that can make one clean.

Yep!

John 8
"34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
"31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🙋‍♂️🙂😁😎😎😎😎
It's an incredibly powerful thing to be freed from your sin and to live as freed human beings knowing that he's given me his Word, and his Spirit to guide, instruct, discipline, and direct me in godly, and righteous living. It's even better learning and understanding that he doesn't quit because I get stupid and trip up, fall flat on my face and beat myself up for failing.

He even tells us in Proverbs,

Pro 24:16 WEB for a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again; but the wicked are overthrown by calamity.

He further gives us the wherewithal to come and be cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.

1Jn 1:5-10 WEB 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1-2 WEB 1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

So.... yeah! YHVH is awesome and totally rocks!

As one who claims to "follow Jesus", shouldn't you abide in the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel?

How do you know I'm not?

Only then can you be a true disciple, be made free from committing sin and thus made clean.

Indeed!
Why don't you come follow Jesus!

 

[Tiburon]

From part of a discussion about "christianity", or more accurately, what people think christianity is.....
versus Jesus.



YOU THINK..... you know what you're talking about.
I didn't come to Jesus because I liked christianity. I was quite clear in my perspective.... I thought christianity was "just another pile of religious bs."

So, stop thinking you know so much and back off, and actually learn the truth.

I have never actually met a single person who came to Jesus because they liked christianity as the collection of religious ideas it's become over the past 1800 years.

Every single person who I've known who follows Jesus has come to Jesus, because of Jesus.

I definitely do not believe in Jesus because I think christianity is a great idea, let alone stick around because of the collection of beliefs and ideas of what christianity has become.

I follow Jesus because of Jesus. So I'd encourage you to step back and take a good hard look at Jesus himself.

If you had really believed "Christianity was just another pile of religious bs." You wouldn't have bothered asking 'God' the question.
If you follow Jesus because of Jesus, then you should be a Jew.

 

[The Pixie]

The apparent contradiction is the "traditions of men taught as the commandments of God."

The contradiction I am talking about is:

• God is merciful, loving and compassionate
• God sends those who fail to love him to suffer for eternity

I have yet to see that resolved.

There may well be other contradictions, but I am less concerned with them. This one is enough to convince me Christianity is wrong.

You're invited to read the bible for yourself and find out for yourself whether what I'm saying is true or not!

I do not doubt you are honestly quoting the Bible.

Checking the Bible to see if the Bible is true, however, is circular reasoning.

• The Bible is true
• Therefore the bible is true

I appreciate this is convincing to you, but not to me.

Exactly as Luke said regarding the Bereans, and Paul tells the Thessalonians.

Act 17:11 WEB Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

If we assume scripture is true, then sure. I do not assume it is true.

Actually, I want you to learn a different perspective. YHVH's perspective.

I want you to do what Jesus says.
Draw near with your heart, and follow him.
Don't follow the tradition of men, convoluted as the doctrines of God.
Learn by reading the bible, and then learn to apply the bible to your life.
Start with talking to YHVH, for yourself.

Where is YHVH's perspective in that?

He's invited you to engage him on his terms.

Sure. All I have to do is love and worship him, and he will give me heaven. If I fail to do so, he will punish me by sending me to hell to be tortured with the billions of others he is torturing for not loving him.

He's gone so far as to call for the silence of those who are disturbing you.

Like all tyrants, he wants to stop those who speak against him.

Isa 41:21 WEB Produce your cause,” says Yahweh. “Bring out your strong reasons!” says the King of Jacob.

I have brough out my "strong reasons". See the start of this post.

Jesus is the truth.

Joh 14:6 WEB Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.

So all those who died before Jesus was born are condemned? Moses, David, Noah failed to go through Jesus, so presumably failed to get to God. is that right? Or are you going to back-pedal and say that actually some can come to God another way?

In other words, the only valid perspective is yours, but the truth, is wrong, no matter what!

You assume that your opinion is "truth" while berating me for holding to what I believe.

Can you not see the hypocrisy here, Steve? Of course not!

Every single person who I've known who follows Jesus has come to Jesus, because of Jesus.

What does that actually mean? Because Jesus is a historical figure? Because of what, according to the gospels, Jesus said? Because you think you have a personal relationship with Jesus and he personally convinced you?

Exactly what it says.
God has said that he will give you a heart to know him.
Jesus makes us his siblings, and children of God.
This is exactly what the new birth is about.

Why are you evading the question?

You can choose to make your position clear, or you can choose to keep it obscure. Ifyou go for the latter, you give me more reason to think you know this is nonsense too.

He doesn't send anyone to hell. Whoever ends up in hell, does so themselves.

No they do not. That is just sophistry to avoid the necessary consequences of your beliefs. According to Christianity, anyone who fails to love God is punished by God by being sent to the lake of fire God created.

Are you really going to pretend people want to be sent to the lake of fire God created?

I want you to consider that you are completely wrong about YHVH and Jesus and the bible, and take a good hard look at who they actually are, not what you think they are.

Then give me reason to think I am wrong.

Tell me, for example, that God does not punish those who, for whatever reason, do not love him. Can you do that? No, because I am right about it!

 

[SteveB]

If you had really believed "Christianity was just another pile of religious bs." You wouldn't have bothered asking 'God' the question.
If you follow Jesus because of Jesus, then you should be a Jew.

Sounds exactly like what a biased person, who is filled with preconceptions would say.
An example of what the wrong kind of knowledge and preconceptions about understanding lead you to.

Pity you stopped short of gaining experience.

 

[SteveB]

The contradiction I am talking about is:

• God is merciful, loving and compassionate
• God sends those who fail to love him to suffer for eternity

I have yet to see that resolved.

He sends nobody to hell. You send yourself to an eternity separated from him by refusing to choose Jesus to be your defense attorney.

There may well be other contradictions, but I am less concerned with them. This one is enough to convince me Christianity is wrong.

Yet you lack the courage to learn the truth, while seeking to assume, so you can justify your ignorance.

I do not doubt you are honestly quoting the Bible.

And yet you lack the courage to find out for yourself, all while accusing me of lying, and assuming.

Checking the Bible to see if the Bible is true, however, is circular reasoning.

• The Bible is true
• Therefore the bible is true

I appreciate this is convincing to you, but not to me.

Only to those who assume. To those of us who actually take the time to learn the truth through reading, and applying it to our lives, we learn it's true by application of it.

If we assume scripture is true, then sure. I do not assume it is true.

Ironically, the bible warns against assuming, and enjoins us to endeavor to learn the truth regarding it through applying the applicable parts to our lives.

So, why would you do that?

Where is YHVH's perspective in that?

It's contained in the bible.
Why don't you endeavor to learn for yourself?

Sure. All I have to do is love and worship him, and he will give me heaven. If I fail to do so, he will punish me by sending me to hell to be tortured with the billions of others he is torturing for not loving him.

Rom 5:10 WEB For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life.

Like all tyrants, he wants to stop those who speak against him.

If all he wanted was to stop you from blaspheming him, he'd simply stop your heart from beating, and stop you from being able to breathe.
The fact that you are still alive is evidence that you are lying about his being a tyrant.
If all he wanted to do was silence you, he never would have given his only son to die for you.

What you are showing is that you have sought to change him to be like corruptible man.

Rom 1:21-23 WEB 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, ........

I have brough out my "strong reasons". See the start of this post.

I see you posting them to me...

Why aren't you telling them to YHVH? Telling me doesn't do anything effective. Tell them to YHVH. That is exactly what YHVH said in those passages.
Or didn't you actually pay attention to what he's saying?

So all those who died before Jesus was born are condemned? Moses, David, Noah failed to go through Jesus, so presumably failed to get to God. is that right? Or are you going to back-pedal and say that actually some can come to God another way?

That is your assumption. Had you bothered reading the bible, you'd have seen the truth regarding this.

According to Genesis 15:6, and John 8, Abraham was justified by YHVH because he believed YHVH and he rejoiced to see the day of Jesus. According to Isaiah 41, he was YHVH's friend.

Noah found Grace with YHVH, because he believed YHVH's word.
Moses was YHVH's friend because he believed YHVH's word.
David was a man after YHVH's own heart, because he believed YHVH's word.
All those who believed YHVH's word were justified by YHVH.

You assume that your opinion is "truth" while berating me for holding to what I believe.

Assume? Why is having curiosity and then pursuing the truth regarding the object of your curiosity assumption?
Why is wanting to know whether something is true that I thought was religious BS assuming that it's true?
Aren't you actually the one who is assuming that it's false? And so refuse to make the endeavor to learn the truth about Jesus?

Can you not see the hypocrisy here, Steve? Of course not!

I see your hypocrisy.
What do you need mine to be?

Why are you evading the question?

"Actually" means exactly what it says. Actually. Real, true, experientially knowable.
Or don't you have any means and methodology for experiencing reality?

We who've come to Jesus and engaged him did so because when we asked, he responded.
In exactly the manner he described in the bible.

You can choose to make your position clear, or you can choose to keep it obscure. Ifyou go for the latter, you give me more reason to think you know this is nonsense too.

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.
YHVH will make himself knowable to you and the question of his reality will be answered by him, to you.
Exactly as Jesus said...

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.​

Doesn't get any better than that.

No they do not. That is just sophistry to avoid the necessary consequences of your beliefs. According to Christianity, anyone who fails to love God is punished by God by being sent to the lake of fire God created.

I don't need any sophistry. Truth is far more effective and profitable for describing the situation. That's what I find so beneficial about truth. It has no agenda or need to obfuscate or seek subterfuge.

At the root of mockers’ character is a high pride that hates submitting to anyone. Their strategy is to debunk everything, acting very smug and knowing in the process. Mockers, though fools, appear to most eyes as worldly-wise and highly sophisticated.

Reminds me of what Asaph said in Psalm 73,

Psa 73:1-10 WEB 1 Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart. 2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone. My steps had nearly slipped. 3 For I was envious of the arrogant, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4 For there are no struggles in their death, but their strength is firm. 5 They are free from burdens of men, neither are they plagued like other men. 6 Therefore pride is like a chain around their neck. Violence covers them like a garment. 7 Their eyes bulge with fat. Their minds pass the limits of conceit. 8 They scoff and speak with malice. In arrogance, they threaten oppression. 9 They have set their mouth in the heavens. Their tongue walks through the earth. 10 Therefore their people return to them, and they drink up waters of abundance.​

Are you really going to pretend people want to be sent to the lake of fire God created?

It's YOUR own sin that you will perish as a result of.
Jesus said that unless we repent and believe the gospel, we will perish. We're all in the same exact boat as everyone else.

Then give me reason to think I am wrong.

Come to Jesus and find out for yourself.
I did.

Tell me, for example, that God does not punish those who, for whatever reason, do not love him. Can you do that? No, because I am right about it!

God does indeed give people exactly what they want by leaving them with the consequences of their sin.
THAT in and of itself is the most miserable punishment imaginable.

 

[treeplanter]

I want you to consider that you are completely wrong about YHVH and Jesus and the bible, and take a good hard look at who they actually are, not what you think they are.

I want the exact same thing, Steve!

I want YOU to consider that YOU are completely wrong about YHVH, Jesus, and the bible


Question for you, though:

Why is it that when I want you to consider that you are wrong about God - you label me as a bully who is trying to force you to change your mind, but when you ask the exact same thing of me - you don't consider yourself to be a bully who tries to force his choice upon others?

 

[SteveB]

I want the exact same thing, Steve!

I want YOU to consider that YOU are completely wrong about YHVH, Jesus, and the bible

I already have Tree!
It's why I don't believe people like you.

Your last op got wiped because of your fallacious attitude and beliefs towards YHVH and Jesus and the bible.

I'm quite satisfied with YHVH's ability to ensure that his people understand his word, and make himself knowable to us.

Although, I'd say that this is exactly what you're so terrified about.

His ability to make sure that humans actually get it.

Your entire tact is to play childish games and manipulate others into believing you instead of YHVH and his Word.

This must be utterly terrifying for you. To think that people see you as you really are, a small, petulant person who is terrified of the truth, and thinks he's capable of manipulating others to agree with you.

There's actually an ancient description given that describes people such as yourself.

Isa 14:16-17 WEB 16 Those who see you will stare at you. They will ponder you, saying, “Is this the man who made the earth to tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a wilderness, and overthrew its cities, who didn’t release his prisoners to their home?”

They will look at you and say... this is what we were so afraid of? Seriously?!🤦🏾‍♂️

Question for you, though:

Why is it that when I want you to consider that you are wrong about God - you label me as a bully who is trying to force you to change your mind, but when you ask the exact same thing of me - you don't consider yourself to be a bully who tries to force his choice upon others?

Bullies don't want you to know the truth.
They only want you to capitulate to their demands.

I simply want you to know the truth and enjoy eternal life.

 

[SteveB]

edit

🤦🏾‍♂️

 

[treeplanter]

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Wrong, Steve

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[Tiburon]

Sounds exactly like what a biased person, who is filled with preconceptions would say.
An example of what the wrong kind of knowledge and preconceptions about understanding lead you to.

Pity you stopped short of gaining experience.

Sounds like you were biased. You didn't ask Allah or Vishnu if they were real.
You were in desperate straights and looking for an answer. You gave yourself one.
I can't force an experience of God. Either he shows up or he doesn't.

 

[The Pixie]

He sends nobody to hell. You send yourself to an eternity separated from him by refusing to choose Jesus to be your defense attorney.

Why do I need a defence attorney?

Oh right. Because Jesus has decided I will go to the hell Jesus chose to create for what Jesus decided was a crime, namely not loving Jesus.

Yet you lack the courage to learn the truth, while seeking to assume, so you can justify your ignorance.

I am assuming (hypothetically) you are right - that what you say is the truth. If you are right, then Jesus has set up a system when I need to love Jesus to avoid going to the hell Jesus created to punish those who fail to love Jesus.

What part of that is not truth?

And yet you lack the courage to find out for yourself, all while accusing me of lying, and assuming.

I think you are wrong, but I do not think you are lying and have never suggested nor implied that.

Unless you can find an example where I am guilty of doing so, I think you owe me an apology.

Of course, your pride is too great for you to apologise to an atheist...

Only to those who assume. To those of us who actually take the time to learn the truth through reading, and applying it to our lives, we learn it's true by application of it.

How does that fit with your false accusation of lying, Steve? You seem to have abandoned truth...

If all he wanted was to stop you from blaspheming him, he'd simply stop your heart from beating, and stop you from being able to breathe.
The fact that you are still alive is evidence that you are lying about his being a tyrant.

Or evidence he does not exist.

What you are showing is that you have sought to change him to be like corruptible man.

What you are failing to show is that he is NOT like corruptible man.

Why aren't you telling them to YHVH? Telling me doesn't do anything effective. Tell them to YHVH. That is exactly what YHVH said in those passages.

He is supposedly all-knowing. He can, therefore, read my posts on CARM!

That is your assumption. Had you bothered reading the bible, you'd have seen the truth regarding this.

According to Genesis 15:6, and John 8, Abraham was justified by YHVH because he believed YHVH and he rejoiced to see the day of Jesus. According to Isaiah 41, he was YHVH's friend.

Noah found Grace with YHVH, because he believed YHVH's word.
Moses was YHVH's friend because he believed YHVH's word.
David was a man after YHVH's own heart, because he believed YHVH's word.
All those who believed YHVH's word were justified by YHVH.

Right. So part of the Bible says the only way to God is through Jesus, and another part says actually you can get to God another way.

Therefore, the Bible is not coherent; it contains contradictions.

Assume? Why is having curiosity and then pursuing the truth regarding the object of your curiosity assumption?

The assumption is that the Bible is true.

Why is wanting to know whether something is true that I thought was religious BS assuming that it's true?

The assumption is that the Bible is true.

Aren't you actually the one who is assuming that it's false?

I think it is false (in parts) based on the evidence. The contradiction just mentioned, for example. The actions of the women after finding the tomb. The Bible's position on slavery.

I see your hypocrisy.
What do you need mine to be?

You object to me being certain I am right, when that is exactly what you are doing. You cannot see that beam in your eye.

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.
YHVH will make himself knowable to you and the question of his reality will be answered by him, to you.
Exactly as Jesus said...

Right. If I assume the Bible is true and turn to YHVH, then, and only then, will I find that the Bible is true.

• The Bible is true
• Therefore the Bible is true.

Doesn't get any better than that.

Agreed. Christianity has no better argument than:

• The Bible is true
• Therefore the Bible is true.

At the root of mockers’ character is a high pride that hates submitting to anyone.

No, Steve, the root is disbelief.

I do not believe you.

It's YOUR own sin that you will perish as a result of.
Jesus said that unless we repent and believe the gospel, we will perish. We're all in the same exact boat as everyone else.

Again, did Moses believe the gospel when he died?

Of course not, he predates it by centuries. There is that inconsistency again.

Come to Jesus and find out for yourself.

Assume that Jesus is real, and, wonder of wonders, you will find out that in fact Jesus is real.

• The Bible is true
• Therefore the Bible is true.

I did.

I know. You were conditioned as a kid to unquestioningly believe the Bible is true, so you just take Jesus on faith. And then conclude Jesus is real.

 

[treeplanter]

Ah! So you're a man of faith!
Just as long as you BELIEVE that what you say is troo, you're ok.

No, I am not

A belief is not the same thing as faith

Faith is the act of accepting as truth, that for which there is no compelling evidence
Faith is the act of accepting as fact, that for which there is no proof
Faith is believing without seeing, without valid reason

I have valid reason to believe, if He even exists, that God is who and what I believe Him to be

people who have been taken captive by the devil to do his will.

If true, then it is the Devil lying through me

If I have been seduced into believing something untrue - then I am wrong, but I am NOT lying precisely BECAUSE I believe it to be true

An evil ideology that you have bought hook, line and sinker.

Right back at ya, Stevieboy, right back at ya

 

[SteveB]

Sounds like you were biased. You didn't ask Allah or Vishnu if they were real.

Sounds like your bias needs me to believe something you don't believe.
Which is pretty biased in my book.

You were in desperate straights and looking for an answer.

Yep. So? Does that mean that YHVH isn't real?
You sound quite desperate right now, in trying to avoid responsibility for yourself and the truth.

You gave yourself one.

Yep. Biased alright.
I'm not that skilled at solving complicated problems. Especially human problems.

Which tells me that you have far more profound faith in humanity than I ever experienced success with.

I can't force an experience of God. Either he shows up or he doesn't.

Exactly. He showed up for me. And as I have stated thousands of times before.... I was astonished, and surprised by this.

Now, after nearly 45 years.... extremely grateful too!

 

[SteveB]

No, I am not

Oh stop! Stop pawning yourself off as a pragmatist. You're a dyed-in-the-wool man of faith. You have been deceived and seduced and you actually think that what you're pedaling is the truth.
The truth is being repeatedly described to you and you are rejecting it, claiming that you alone are speaking the truth, while denying you believe that YHVH is real.

A belief is not the same thing as faith

This just demonstrates that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Faith is the act of accepting as truth, that for which there is no compelling evidence

Did you think that having compelling evidence is going to grab you by the throat and body slam you to the floor, and hold you down until you cry uncle?

I have faith in Jesus explicitly because he has provided compelling evidence and I've never been body slammed.

Faith is the act of accepting as fact, that for which there is no proof

Further demonstrating that you really have no clue what you're talking about.

Faith is believing without seeing, without valid reason

We who follow Jesus have copious amounts of reason.

Eg, I have never once seen atoms, electrons, a million dollars, or the Concorde plane. Yet I believe they all exist.
Why? Testimony, observation of their effects on the world in which we live, and the impacts on air travel.

I have valid reason to believe, if He even exists, that God is who and what I believe Him to be

There you go! You are a man of faith.
You have believed the lies of demons, deceivers, and frauds.

If true, then it is the Devil lying through me

Exactly!
And because you are promoting his lies, you are culpable and will be condemned by your own words, and suffer the consequences for choosing to believe lies.

If I have been seduced into believing something untrue - then I am wrong, but I am NOT lying precisely BECAUSE I believe it to be true

Which makes you a man of faith.
Which is why Jesus warned us to beware of false teachers who pedal lies, believing they're speaking truth!

Right back at ya, Stevieboy, right back at ya

You see, I was already warned that people would condemn me for speaking the truth regarding Jesus and God's Righteousness.
So, you aren't saying anything that I wasn't previously familiar with.

Mat 5:11-12 WEB 11 “Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

So, keep at it. I have people who are praying for you, as well as myself praying for you. 😎