Jesus, religion or reality......

[The Pixie]

With you acting idiotic? Nah, I'm used to it. Oh, you mean SPECIFICALLY about how you made up quotes for me that expressed the precise opposite of my thoughts while moronically thinking that in doing so you were illustrating how I put quotes around stuff I have YOU saying in a fictitious scene I created to illustrate your PRECISE thoughts? Nah, I've come to expect that sort of imbecility from you.

Are they both "the precise opposite"? Remember, my made-up quotes are:

• I believe Jesus was buried a grave with the wicked, because that is what it says in Isaiah 53
• Actually, I am going to back-pedal on my previous statement; I have now decided I believe Jesus was buried on his own in a new tomb, because that is standard Christian doctrine

So apparently your position now is:

• Isaiah got it wrong, and Jesus was not in fact assigned a grave with the wicked.
• You do not believe standard Christian doctrine that Jesus was buried on his own in a new tomb.

That would be "the precise opposite".

Are you going to say that my made-up quotes do not reflect your position? Both of them?

Correct. Not even close.

Remember, my made-up quotes are:

• I believe Jesus was buried a grave with the wicked, because that is what it says in Isaiah 53
• Actually, I am going to back-pedal on my previous statement; I have now decided I believe Jesus was buried on his own in a new tomb, because that is standard Christian doctrine

Now here we have stiggy saying that these two statements are "the precise opposite" of what he believes, they are "Not even close." Anyone want to take a guess at what stiggy really does believe?

Or how soon it will be before he is back-pedalling? Again.

Incidentally you ducked this question before, so I'll give you another shot at it:

If one wants to create an obviously fictitious scene in which he has himself and his interlocutor conversing by expressing their thoughts, how the hell can he do that WITHOUT quote marks? So basically you would outlaw all historical novels, right??

That is not what I objected to. Given how often I have pointed that out, I am sure you know that, and this is just you knowing you got caught and trying to squirm your way out it.

But what about in post # 64 when you said, "Obviously Jesus was not buried in a grave with the wicked since he shared a grave with his mother. Are you really thinking Mary was wicked?" SO, the Pixie, do you still think Mary died in 33 AD right before Jesus died?

Post #64 was made by YOU stiggy.

This is something that is just plain untrue. Once again you are making up a quote and pretending I said.

To be clear, it certainly does not represent my position. As you say, Mary was still alive. I think Jesus probably was buried with the wicked, because his corpse was, at best, throw into a communal grave for criminals.

Oh, and your answers were wrong on your homework assignment, but I'm feeling gracious today so I'm giving you another chance:

Fill in the blanks:

"In post # ____ stiggy said '__________________,' but then contradicted that in post #____ when he said '________________'."

Again? For the fourth time now.

"In post # 67 stiggy said 'I am pretending to believe Jesus was buried a grave with the wicked, because that is what it says in Isaiah 53,' but then contradicted that in post # 71 when he said 'Actually, I am going to back-pedal on my previous statement; I have now decided I believe Jesus was buried on his own in a new tomb, because that is standard Christian doctrine'."*

Is there a problem with that? Are you objecting that these are not your actual words? Of course not, because in stiggy wiggy world, it is fine to make up a quote, right?

And unlike when you do it, I add a disclaimer that states that I have done it. I am not trying to mislead people. You are.

* Note: Not actual quotes, but apparently stiggy is fine with that as long as they accurately represent what he meant, and I am certain they do at least represent what he was pretending to believe when he posted. See post #72 for details on why.

 

[Tiburon]

Yet you're not actually able to explain why.

To you? No it seems not.

Only to people who don't know how to address specific people in their conversations.

You should learn to engage one person at a time. In my experience, doing so provides a much richer and more enjoyable experience with them.
It's experience.

When you ask an open question for "anyone" to respond to that includes God.

?
This reminds me of something Jesus said....

Mat 11:12 WEB From the days of John the Baptizer until now, the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

Perhaps this is your problem.

You haven't actually done this.

Done what exactly?

There you go again playing psychologist.
Stop it. You lack the necessary education to have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

You don't know what education I have.

Jesus said that some people prefer their sin over the truth.

False dichotomy.

Why else would you actually think you're going to escape an eternity of misery and agony and anguish? Egocentric attitude, a sense of self sufficiency, "just as long as I don't believe it, it won't happen to me." Itis.

I don't think I'm going to escape an eternity of misery and agony and anguish.
I don't see any evidence that there is an eternity of misery and agony and anguish to be at all concerned about.

You do however need to deny his warnings to cling to your sin.
Eternity is a long, long time to be THAT clingy.

I don't have to deny something that is unverifiable.

We're even warned about this issue.

Scripture doesn’t limit its reasons against sin to “just because it’s wrong.” It also includes “because it’s stupid” since sin’s consequences are so severe. “For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster” (Proverbs 1:32-33, ESV).

If you actually WANT to spend your eternity in the lake of fire, then by all means.... continue to cling to your sin. It'll guarantee you a one way ticket to hell, and after the judgment day, a fire-feature on the lake of fire.

It sounds like a protection racket.
I see no reason to take these threatened consequences seriously.

Then whatever your previous experience was with him wasn't actually with Him. Rather, it was an idea of what you think was him.

The thing I think you're ignoring here is that he demonstrates himself to those who come to him with a whole heart.
In Jeremiah 24:7, he tells us that he will give us a heart to know him.
I.e., he gives us the wherewithal to know him, to know he is real, and knowable.

In John 17:3, Jesus said that eternal life is knowing God and Jesus whom God sent.

Jesus further stated in John 14:23, if you keep his teachings, you will be loved by God and both Jesus and his Father will come and make their home with you.

So, just because you have no interest in knowing God, doesn't mean that he's not offering you the truth and opportunity to engage him on his terms.

If I have no experience with God, whose fault is that?
I've taken many opportunities to reach out to God.

Sounds like you are seeking to sidestep your own bias and preconceptions.

Yes I do seek to sidestep my own bias and preconceptions.
Maybe you should give it a try.

Actually, he's been risen from the dead, so he's not in the "same boat."
And in my death, as a follower of Jesus, I'll be with Jesus.
You, as not a follower of Jesus will be in hell, waiting for your sin to be judged.

This is exactly why we continue to tell you about Jesus.

He died, and was raised from the dead to give you eternal life in exchange for your sin and death.

I'm yet to see any evidence to back this up.

And you seem to think that it's ok for you to slander me because you don't actually know what you're talking about?

Have I slandered you?

Sounds like you have a limited perspective on this issue.
My doctors-- I've had at least 9, oncology-related, and other doctors-- spent several years telling me that I had exceeded their medical technology. And that they had no idea why I was still alive.

Yes my perspective is limited to the evidence.

If I were you, I'd be asking your brother about some of the conversations they had with him.
Not as a means of doubting the veracity of the "miracle of modern medicine", but to better understand your brother's experience.

I accompanied him on many of his treatment and post op follow ups.
The word "Miracle" was never mentioned.
We aren't so religious in my country.

It's a very powerful thing..... to live with, instead of dying of..... cancer.

And while you may have observed your family members experience with it... it's still not the same as going through it.

I watched my mom with her lung cancer with metastatic cancer to her brain.
She was not a believer in Jesus and hearing her pleas, bargaining with God to let me live, she'd gladly die. I was headed in for my 3rd surgery two weeks after she died.
Learning my grandfather died of asbestosis cancer, just before my 4th surgery, and the ongoing comments about the miraculous nature of my ongoing survival, continued to impact my thinking, and life.
10 months later I had my 5th surgery and my primary care doctor told me that he'd never met anyone who had as great a capacity for hope as I'd had, and he'd had several cancer patients over the course of his practice as a physician. Which was already into his third decade, as a board certified internal medicine specialist.

Your hope is obviously what played a big part in your healing.
Hope is a very powerful thing.

You BELIEVE he was JUST a man.

Nope!
But, as stated above.... there's actually a why behind their being deleterious, but you apparently don't understand what the why is.

I think I do but you obviously have your own theories.

Do you know where the hole idea originated?
Pascal described it first.

Pascal? Really. That seems a bit late in the day.
What was his take on the situation?

Perhaps. YHVH is our Heavenly Father. So why wouldn't there be?
Once we grow up, we don't cease having a valid need for a father. It's always been described to me that once we grow up, we transfer our Father-type trust from our earthly fathers to our Heavenly Father, because we see our earthly father's humanity and frailties as men. The same frailties we have. The same humanity we have. The same weaknesses, problems, struggles, etc...
YHVH on the other hand has no such problems, and while Jesus did, and he is acutely aware of and familiar with our frailties, etc... he's our high priest before God, who can share our struggles.
This results in YHVH being the perfect Father. He never fails. Never grows weary. Never gives up. Never gives us things which would genuinely be destructive to us. Always warns us ahead of time when we're stuck on stupid and following through on doing stupid. He's ready, able and willing to give us good gifts, and is daily and genuinely excited to see, and hear from us, no matter what the circumstances are. He rejoices over us, singing with delight and love for us, daily. He loves us with an everlasting love. Works for our eternal benefit, always focused on ensuring that everything we experience in our lives works together to ensure that we are conformed into the likeness of Jesus. I.e., our human character is being worked on by Him to result in our being like Jesus.

All these things are detailed in the bible.

So the attraction of YHVH is that he fills that emotional hole. Not because there is evidence that he is at all real.
"This results in YHVH being the perfect Father. He never fails." Of course he doesn't. Believers don't let him fail. They always come up with some kind of rationalisation for any thing that might be seen as a shortcoming by others.

 

[Tiburon]

And?
The longer you talk, the more it becomes clear that you have an inflated view of the human race and a set of false views of human emotion.

I'm not talking the human race as a whole. I'm talking about the individual. As you talk it becomes clear that you have a very limited understanding of human psychology.
You seem to have no grasp of the lengths the human mind will go to in order to protect us in terrible situations.
Things like dissociation in the face of unthinkable abuse. Embracing any parent figure in order to fill an emotional/developmental need.

Nope! We who follow Jesus actually experience him in our lives.
Contrary to your opinions and beliefs about the human race, I do not possess the power or ability to restore the correct atomic order of the atoms in my body, following a catastrophic change in their arrangement.
If humans actually did possess this power, nobody would die.
The fact that humans do die demonstrates that you have delusions of grandeur.

I know you believe you actually experience him in your life.
What the hell are you talking about with the atoms and super powers?

I'm not the one who keeps believing he knows enough about me to discuss my motives and opinions, or even thinks I have the power to make the human mind effect the healing of gunshot wounds, cancer, etc....

Really? Because you seem pretty quick to assume some kind of failing or out and out lying on the part of those who haven't found the "Truth" of Jesus.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
You're talking about an incredibly powerful mind, capable of changing their entire world view, far beyond your own ability to change your world view.

These are people who have brought their lives to the brink of destruction. They couldn't stop drinking, stop doing drugs, stop committing adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lying, cheating, stealing, raping, murdering, or any number of other ungodly practices. And you actually think they're capable of handling so comprehensive and complete change like what you're saying?

The human mind is a wonderful thing.
I'm sure you've been in love Steve. How much did that change your life?

Especially when the human race has been on a self-destruct course for several millennia. Have you ever actually looked around planet earth and seen the chaos in the world today?

The human race is on the same course as it has always been.
Only now we have bigger sticks to hit each other with.

And you actually think humans possess the power to achieve what you're talking about?

Seems to me that you are the one who needs to learn psychiatry. Seriously!

Wow Steve. You seem to have such low regard for your fellow humans. If your God thinks as you do I wonder why he bothers.

You have far more profound faith in the human being than I've ever heard of, let alone seen.

Wow... yeah. What you have is an ego thing. Well, let me know when you throw the sun over your shoulder and drag it out to Pluto. I'd love to watch.

Just recognizing reality. A reality which you apparently lack.

Well, Paul did indeed describe what you're saying.

Rom 1:21-22 WEB 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Actually I don't have a profound faith in human beings. People can and do behave heinously to one another but I know that we are also capable of doing wonderous things. Surely you have amazing people that you look up to other than Jesus?

 

[SteveB]

To you? No it seems not.

So far the only thing you're doing is making declarative statements. There are no explanations to describe why what you're saying is actually correct.

When you ask an open question for "anyone" to respond to that includes God.

You assume it was an "open" question.
If I'm in a room where nobody else is, except myself and one other person, and I ask questions, did it ever occur to you that I could only be talking to one other person?

Or did you need the room to be filled with others who can't fit in the room?

Done what exactly?

Use violence to enter God's Kingdom. That is what Jesus said.

You don't know what education I have.

No more than you know what my life's experiences are.

False dichotomy.

Another declarative statement with no basis for why it should be believed.

I don't think I'm going to escape an eternity of misery and agony and anguish.
I don't see any evidence that there is an eternity of misery and agony and anguish to be at all concerned about.

I.e., "I don't actually want to know, so I'll just continue believing as I do and because I don't believe it, it won't actually happen, so I'm cool."

I don't have to deny something that is unverifiable.

I.e., "as long as I don't think it's important, the consequences won't actually happen, so it's immaterial what the truth actually is."

It sounds like a protection racket.

Really?
And what's the price you have to pay for protection?

I see no reason to take these threatened consequences seriously.

No threat. A simple matter of fact and warning.
It's like driving on the road and seeing a sign stating-- bridge out ahead. Turn right at next intersection, and follow detour signs.

If I have no experience with God, whose fault is that?

Depends entirely on which god you tried engaging. As a number of different atheists have noted before..... there are millions of gods. So which one?
If you're addressing the wrong god then of course there's no response.
Considering that you have repeatedly stated I'm not allowed to have addressed the correct God, YHVH, why would I think you did?

Tell me the name of the god you engaged, and I'll give you the likelihood of their responding.

I've taken many opportunities to reach out to God.

Which one?
Jehovah's witnesses?
Mormon?
Buddha?
Kali?
Krishna?
Oden?
Chronos?
Or one of the tens of millions of others?

Sorry, but if atheists are allowed to ask such questions, I can too.

To me, there's only one God. His name is YHVH. His son's name is Jesus.
All the other gods are demons. Wannabes who are liars, deceivers, and frauds.

So.... which god did you reach out to?

Yes I do seek to sidestep my own bias and preconceptions.
Maybe you should give it a try.

I did.
I started doing so in 1977 when I asked YHVH if he was real, if the Jesus stuff I'd heard was real or just another pile of religious bs.
His response blew my preconceptions out of the water.

I find it curious that only atheists are the ones who have been objective in their unbelief, but when someone actually meets YHVH, because YHVH did what he said he would, that person was totally biased, and loaded down with preconceptions about gods/goddesses, in spite of no previous experience.

I'm yet to see any evidence to back this up.

25 Scholars (and 42 Quotes) on the Evidence for Jesus Christ’s Resurrection

The following quotations are from scholars who have largely studied in detail the rise of early Christianity and are experts in New Testament history, Pauline studies, and historical Jesus studies.…

jamesbishopblog.com

Similar such articles have been available for years.
So, at what point do you engage in following through on researching the work done on this issue?
You are the one who said you came to this forum to ask questions about your beliefs.

Have I slandered you?

Indeed. You decided that my experiences can't be real, so you have been accusing me of psychological crimes, motivational psychosis.

Yes my perspective is limited to the evidence.

To the evidence that you are willing to recognize. Why is that?
Hundreds of millions of people have had no problem with the evidence, and have worked through it to their satisfaction and continue to work through when they receive new information.
So, why are you special, and deserve what nobody else has ever needed?

You're like the guy who has been given evidence which is the same evidence that others have been given, and recognized as valid, but you claim that it's not evidence. Eg, I'm holding a bug in my hand. You look at it and claim it's not evidence of the bug. Someone else looks and says- yep. That's evidence of the bug. I show it to 20 other people who all agree it's a bug. But you... you continue to argue it's not evidence of a bug. When asked why, you respond that you've never seen that particular bug before, so it can't be a bug.
Seems like you should stop thinking that your views of the world are the only valid ones.

I accompanied him on many of his treatment and post op follow ups.
The word "Miracle" was never mentioned.

Hmm.... my doctors were the ones who used the word miracle. It was never instigated by me. I don't recall ever telling them beforehand that I was religious. I may have wrote that I was christian on my hospital entrance form.
The ear-nose-throat doctor who operated on my throat in 1978, he had no idea what i believed. I was 18, and came into the hospital with a gunshot wound because of a gunshot during a drinking and pot party.

We aren't so religious in my country.

Ok. And this is important because.... why?

Your hope is obviously what played a big part in your healing.
Hope is a very powerful thing.

You view hope different from what I did.
My experiences with hope were never tied to an awareness of any psychological benefits.

I think I do but you obviously have your own theories.

And experiences.

Pascal? Really. That seems a bit late in the day.
What was his take on the situation?

The correct quote of Blaise Pascal

“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vai…

itsjustme.wordpress.com

https://harvardichthus.org/2011/05/pascal_hole/

So the attraction of YHVH is that he fills that emotional hole. Not because there is evidence that he is at all real.

There could be no filling of any hole if YHVH wasn't real.
I could never understand the color red if the color red didn't exist.

The proof that YHVH is real is the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. According to the bible.

"This results in YHVH being the perfect Father. He never fails." Of course he doesn't. Believers don't let him fail.

????
We're not that powerful.
Well, at least it can't be said that you don't have a wild imagination, and an extremely exaggerated view of humanity.
It seems like you think humans could walk from the earth to the moon on a red carpet made of gold, with no need for oxygen or a space suit. And do it in a matter of minutes.

They always come up with some kind of rationalisation for any thing that might be seen as a shortcoming by others.

Apparently the only problem here is that you're the only one who keeps rationalizing your own bias and preconceptions that result in you being right, and we being delusional.

 

[SteveB]

I'm not talking the human race as a whole. I'm talking about the individual. As you talk it becomes clear that you have a very limited understanding of human psychology.

And?
You think you know everything about the human psyche?
Why are you on this backwoods internet forum?
If you're so all knowing, why aren't you publishing research and writing books, and journal articles?

You seem to have no grasp of the lengths the human mind will go to in order to protect us in terrible situations.

Well, apparently you do know. Yet here you are on a backwoods internet forum, unpublished, undocumented, and nondescript.

Things like dissociation in the face of unthinkable abuse. Embracing any parent figure in order to fill an emotional/developmental need.

Are you experienced, a practitioner or firsthand observer?

I know you believe you actually experience him in your life.

Yeah..... it's a curious thing about this....

Having medical doctors repeatedly describe the miraculous nature of recovery from a bullet wound, stage four metastatic melanoma cancer, which has a standard practice of killing its patients within one to two years and here I am 35 years later, still breathing, talking with people, working, living life....

It'd be easier to take you seriously had the bullet wound healing been a one off thing, and no cancer.
Or even if the cancer had never passed the cutaneous or even subcutaneous stage one, Clarke breslow level 4. Perhaps even just one or two surgeries at stage 3, and then a stage four metastases...

But I went way past all that. I remained an active stage four metastatic melanoma patient for 5 years.
It's now been 18 years since my last surgery.
I finished my 4 year clinical trial and the oncologist said that I had exceeded their medical technology and know how.
And the cancer kept coming for another 3+ years.
Shorter and shorter times between recurrence.

So.... I'm left here thinking that you aren't as brilliant as you believe you are, or as you want others to believe you are.

I have no idea how many times your brother experienced his cancer. Once, twice, three, four, more?

What the hell are you talking about with the atoms and super powers?

I'd say you should stop talking and look closely at the nature of the make up of reality.
Everything is made up of atoms. DNA is made up of atoms.

A Science Odyssey: DNA Workshop: Replication

Cancer is a breakdown at the atomic level of the DNA.

https://www.nj.gov/dep/rpp/radon/school/scldown/bioinv6.pdf

Thus, to repair the DNA and restore normally operating system, it needs to take place at the atomic level.

Until then, cancer will just continue to return and grow unobstructed.
The rate at which it grows is determined at the DNA or atomic level, based on the information contained therein.

Looking at today's news on Google news, there's a collection of articles about the discovery that information can be stored on the quantum level.

Full Coverage - Google News

See the latest updates, context, and perspectives about this story.

news.google.com

I'll let you work through the reports yourself.

The level of expertise and knowledge and understanding to design something so profound is beyond the capability of humans today. Perhaps in a few decades, to hundreds of years into the future... but not here, and not now.

Really? Because you seem pretty quick to assume some kind of failing or out and out lying on the part of those who haven't found the "Truth" of Jesus.

It's not an assumption.
The bible is pretty clear about this issue.

1Jn 2:19 WEB They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

This is just one of several, perhaps a few dozen different items describing the issue of people who quit.

John 3:19 says it's because people love their own ways more than they want God and Jesus in their lives.

Matthew 13 says that it's because people realize that following Jesus is more difficult than they want to deal with. Another one describes people who get caught up in the issues associated with this life, here and now. Later on in chapter 13, it describes people who were merely religionists who never actually met Jesus.
In other places we read about people who get too full of themselves and their egos, and they get caught up in false beliefs and assumptions, and promulgate their own beliefs and ideas.
So... in the end... it is what Jesus said would take place.

The human mind is a wonderful thing.

Indeed! YHVH created it in his own likeness and image.

I'm sure you've been in love Steve. How much did that change your life?

I've been married to her since 1990.
I've been with Jesus since 1977.
So I'd say that love has completely changed my life.

The human race is on the same course as it has always been.

Headlong towards self destruction.

Only now we have bigger sticks to hit each other with.

And apparently the sticks are now becoming quite nanoscopic and far deadlier.

Mini-nukes and mosquito-like robot weapons being primed for future warfare

Several countries are developing weapons based on nanotechnology that could unleash attacks with mini-nukes and insect-like lethal bots.

www.cnbc.com

The Applications and Implications of Nanotechnology

This article provides an overview of nanotechnology, its applications, and its implications for national security. It then outlines general policy recommendations to mitigate the threats posed by nanotechnology.

www.american.edu

I'll let you do your own research.
My search parameter

nanoscale weapons dna

Wow Steve. You seem to have such low regard for your fellow humans. If your God thinks as you do I wonder why he bothers.

My views are based on experience for the past 62 years of being alive.

The idea that I have enough regard to think humans are of intrinsic value to YHVH is because of Jesus and the bible.
Otherwise I'd just walk away and let humans destroy themselves.

If you haven't actually seen or experienced the ugliness of the human race yet, a part of me would say-- consider yourself blessed.
Another part of me would say-- don't worry. Your day will come soon enough.

Naivete makes life easier to enjoy. Back in my youth we called it being gay.
A laid back, relaxed, easygoing sense about living. Not a care about anything beyond your awareness. Happy-go-lucky.

Experience makes life a choice.
Every day, we get up, and we choose to face encounters with others through the eyes of Jesus. We watch out for the purpose of understanding and perspective, so we don't get tripped up by the malice and other ugliness of humanity in our lives. Our own included.

Actually I don't have a profound faith in human beings. People can and do behave heinously to one another but I know that we are also capable of doing wonderous things.

Yep, the dichotomy of human nature.
We were created in the likeness and image of YHVH, and we then sinned, breaking the connection between us and YHVH.

He gave us Jesus to restore our humanity to a whole state,but not everyone wants restoration. They apparently like their own ways.

Surely you have amazing people that you look up to other than Jesus?

Not any more.

I need a perfect example of who my life needs to be like. I say this because he is the one to whom I will give an answer for my life.

Those to whom I once looked up have died and I can no longer engage them in discussion about the challenges I face in my life.

 

[Tiburon]

So far the only thing you're doing is making declarative statements. There are no explanations to describe why what you're saying is actually correct.

You assume it was an "open" question.
If I'm in a room where nobody else is, except myself and one other person, and I ask questions, did it ever occur to you that I could only be talking to one other person?

Or did you need the room to be filled with others who can't fit in the room?

I no longer know what you're talking about.

Use violence to enter God's Kingdom. That is what Jesus said.

I that a real option?

No more than you know what my life's experiences are.

You keep telling us what your life's experiences are.

Another declarative statement with no basis for why it should be believed.

Yes, your quote from Jesus is exactly that.

I.e., "I don't actually want to know, so I'll just continue believing as I do and because I don't believe it, it won't actually happen, so I'm cool."

I do actually want to know, if there is any evidence that it is something I should be concerned about.
There isn't.

I.e., "as long as I don't think it's important, the consequences won't actually happen, so it's immaterial what the truth actually is."

No, it is material what the truth actually is.
You have yet to show me that what you claim is the actual truth.

Really?
And what's the price you have to pay for protection?

I have to join YHVH's gang.

No threat. A simple matter of fact and warning.
It's like driving on the road and seeing a sign stating-- bridge out ahead. Turn right at next intersection, and follow detour signs.

When the map doesn't even show that there is a bridge ahead.

Depends entirely on which god you tried engaging. As a number of different atheists have noted before..... there are millions of gods. So which one?
If you're addressing the wrong god then of course there's no response.
Considering that you have repeatedly stated I'm not allowed to have addressed the correct God, YHVH, why would I think you did?

Tell me the name of the god you engaged, and I'll give you the likelihood of their responding.


Which one?
Jehovah's witnesses?
Mormon?
Buddha?
Kali?
Krishna?
Oden?
Chronos?
Or one of the tens of millions of others?

Sorry, but if atheists are allowed to ask such questions, I can too.

To me, there's only one God. His name is YHVH. His son's name is Jesus.
All the other gods are demons. Wannabes who are liars, deceivers, and frauds.

So.... which god did you reach out to?

Like you I reached out to the God of the Bible.

I did.
I started doing so in 1977 when I asked YHVH if he was real, if the Jesus stuff I'd heard was real or just another pile of religious bs.
His response blew my preconceptions out of the water.

If you had a preconception that there was no God you wouldn't even have asked the question.

I find it curious that only atheists are the ones who have been objective in their unbelief, but when someone actually meets YHVH, because YHVH did what he said he would, that person was totally biased, and loaded down with preconceptions about gods/goddesses, in spite of no previous experience.

Your meeting with YHVH is subjective. You can't show it to anyone else. You can't measure it.

25 Scholars (and 42 Quotes) on the Evidence for Jesus Christ’s Resurrection

The following quotations are from scholars who have largely studied in detail the rise of early Christianity and are experts in New Testament history, Pauline studies, and historical Jesus studies.…

jamesbishopblog.com

Similar such articles have been available for years.
So, at what point do you engage in following through on researching the work done on this issue?
You are the one who said you came to this forum to ask questions about your beliefs.

I began following through as soon as I started to have questions about the Bible and why I wasn't having the same experience as those claimed by the Christians around me. I've read many such articles.
I've been following through for more than 40 years.

Indeed. You decided that my experiences can't be real, so you have been accusing me of psychological crimes, motivational psychosis.

I'm sure your experiences are real. I merely doubt there origin.
What psychological crimes & motivational psychosis?

To the evidence that you are willing to recognize. Why is that?
Hundreds of millions of people have had no problem with the evidence, and have worked through it to their satisfaction and continue to work through when they receive new information.
So, why are you special, and deserve what nobody else has ever needed?

You're like the guy who has been given evidence which is the same evidence that others have been given, and recognized as valid, but you claim that it's not evidence. Eg, I'm holding a bug in my hand. You look at it and claim it's not evidence of the bug. Someone else looks and says- yep. That's evidence of the bug. I show it to 20 other people who all agree it's a bug. But you... you continue to argue it's not evidence of a bug. When asked why, you respond that you've never seen that particular bug before, so it can't be a bug.
Seems like you should stop thinking that your views of the world are the only valid ones.

My educational history has been weighted toward the hard sciences. Quite materialistic and logic heavy.
Hundreds of people don't have the education that I have had, many people have a tendency to fall into logical traps. I myself am not immune to them. Many people fall for things like correlation implying causation. Argument from popularity or argument from incredulity etc.
We are often quick to make connections where there are none.
Using your example it's more like you telling me you've seen this amazing bug but it flew away. And you wonder why that isn't good enough for me. Why I don't just believe you.

Hmm.... my doctors were the ones who used the word miracle. It was never instigated by me. I don't recall ever telling them beforehand that I was religious. I may have wrote that I was christian on my hospital entrance form.
The ear-nose-throat doctor who operated on my throat in 1978, he had no idea what i believed. I was 18, and came into the hospital with a gunshot wound because of a gunshot during a drinking and pot party.

Are you telling me that no doctors are religious?
That they would never think of using the word miracle for anything short of divine intervention?

Ok. And this is important because.... why?

Because those with a religious bent are more apt to see miracles in the merely extraordinary.

You view hope different from what I did.
My experiences with hope were never tied to an awareness of any psychological benefits.

Hope is hope. It's like exercise, you don't need to know the biology to get the benefits.

The correct quote of Blaise Pascal

“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vai…

itsjustme.wordpress.com

https://harvardichthus.org/2011/05/pascal_hole/

Pascal was deeply religious.
He couldn't conceive of anything that didn't have it's roots in God. We have moved on from there.

There could be no filling of any hole if YHVH wasn't real.
I could never understand the color red if the color red didn't exist.

The proof that YHVH is real is the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. According to the bible.

Of course there could. The idea of God is enough. Just like the placebo effect.
The nation of Israel is proof of the power of the idea. It isn't proof of the truth of the idea itself.

????
We're not that powerful.
Well, at least it can't be said that you don't have a wild imagination, and an extremely exaggerated view of humanity.
It seems like you think humans could walk from the earth to the moon on a red carpet made of gold, with no need for oxygen or a space suit. And do it in a matter of minutes.

I don't understand where you are getting these ideas from what I have said.
You seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow man.

Apparently the only problem here is that you're the only one who keeps rationalizing your own bias and preconceptions that result in you being right, and we being delusional.

I'm not rationalizing my own bias and preconceptions to any greater extent than you.

 

[Tiburon]

So far the only thing you're doing is making declarative statements. There are no explanations to describe why what you're saying is actually correct.

You assume it was an "open" question.
If I'm in a room where nobody else is, except myself and one other person, and I ask questions, did it ever occur to you that I could only be talking to one other person?

Or did you need the room to be filled with others who can't fit in the room?

I no longer know what you're talking about.

Use violence to enter God's Kingdom. That is what Jesus said.

I that a real option?

No more than you know what my life's experiences are.


Another declarative statement with no basis for why it should be believed.

I.e., "I don't actually want to know, so I'll just continue believing as I do and because I don't believe it, it won't actually happen, so I'm cool."



I.e., "as long as I don't think it's important, the consequences won't actually happen, so it's immaterial what the truth actually is."


Really?
And what's the price you have to pay for protection?


No threat. A simple matter of fact and warning.
It's like driving on the road and seeing a sign stating-- bridge out ahead. Turn right at next intersection, and follow detour signs.



Depends entirely on which god you tried engaging. As a number of different atheists have noted before..... there are millions of gods. So which one?
If you're addressing the wrong god then of course there's no response.
Considering that you have repeatedly stated I'm not allowed to have addressed the correct God, YHVH, why would I think you did?

Tell me the name of the god you engaged, and I'll give you the likelihood of their responding.


Which one?
Jehovah's witnesses?
Mormon?
Buddha?
Kali?
Krishna?
Oden?
Chronos?
Or one of the tens of millions of others?

Sorry, but if atheists are allowed to ask such questions, I can too.

To me, there's only one God. His name is YHVH. His son's name is Jesus.
All the other gods are demons. Wannabes who are liars, deceivers, and frauds.

So.... which god did you reach out to?


I did.
I started doing so in 1977 when I asked YHVH if he was real, if the Jesus stuff I'd heard was real or just another pile of religious bs.
His response blew my preconceptions out of the water.

I find it curious that only atheists are the ones who have been objective in their unbelief, but when someone actually meets YHVH, because YHVH did what he said he would, that person was totally biased, and loaded down with preconceptions about gods/goddesses, in spite of no previous experience.

25 Scholars (and 42 Quotes) on the Evidence for Jesus Christ’s Resurrection

The following quotations are from scholars who have largely studied in detail the rise of early Christianity and are experts in New Testament history, Pauline studies, and historical Jesus studies.…

jamesbishopblog.com

Similar such articles have been available for years.
So, at what point do you engage in following through on researching the work done on this issue?
You are the one who said you came to this forum to ask questions about your beliefs.


Indeed. You decided that my experiences can't be real, so you have been accusing me of psychological crimes, motivational psychosis.


To the evidence that you are willing to recognize. Why is that?
Hundreds of millions of people have had no problem with the evidence, and have worked through it to their satisfaction and continue to work through when they receive new information.
So, why are you special, and deserve what nobody else has ever needed?

You're like the guy who has been given evidence which is the same evidence that others have been given, and recognized as valid, but you claim that it's not evidence. Eg, I'm holding a bug in my hand. You look at it and claim it's not evidence of the bug. Someone else looks and says- yep. That's evidence of the bug. I show it to 20 other people who all agree it's a bug. But you... you continue to argue it's not evidence of a bug. When asked why, you respond that you've never seen that particular bug before, so it can't be a bug.
Seems like you should stop thinking that your views of the world are the only valid ones.


Hmm.... my doctors were the ones who used the word miracle. It was never instigated by me. I don't recall ever telling them beforehand that I was religious. I may have wrote that I was christian on my hospital entrance form.
The ear-nose-throat doctor who operated on my throat in 1978, he had no idea what i believed. I was 18, and came into the hospital with a gunshot wound because of a gunshot during a drinking and pot party.


Ok. And this is important because.... why?



You view hope different from what I did.
My experiences with hope were never tied to an awareness of any psychological benefits.


And experiences.

The correct quote of Blaise Pascal

“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vai…

itsjustme.wordpress.com

https://harvardichthus.org/2011/05/pascal_hole/

There could be no filling of any hole if YHVH wasn't real.
I could never understand the color red if the color red didn't exist.

The proof that YHVH is real is the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. According to the bible.





????
We're not that powerful.
Well, at least it can't be said that you don't have a wild imagination, and an extremely exaggerated view of humanity.
It seems like you think humans could walk from the earth to the moon on a red carpet made of gold, with no need for oxygen or a space suit. And do it in a matter of minutes.


Apparently the only problem here is that you're the only one who keeps rationalizing your own bias and preconceptions that result in you being right, and we being delusional.

 

[Tiburon]

And?
You think you know everything about the human psyche?
Why are you on this backwoods internet forum?
If you're so all knowing, why aren't you publishing research and writing books, and journal articles?

I in know way no everything about the human psyche.
It is something that I have a long time interest in but that is all.

Are you experienced, a practitioner or firsthand observer?

Some experience, some observation.

Having medical doctors repeatedly describe the miraculous nature of recovery from a bullet wound, stage four metastatic melanoma cancer, which has a standard practice of killing its patients within one to two years and here I am 35 years later, still breathing, talking with people, working, living life....

It'd be easier to take you seriously had the bullet wound healing been a one off thing, and no cancer.
Or even if the cancer had never passed the cutaneous or even subcutaneous stage one, Clarke breslow level 4. Perhaps even just one or two surgeries at stage 3, and then a stage four metastases...

But I went way past all that. I remained an active stage four metastatic melanoma patient for 5 years.
It's now been 18 years since my last surgery.
I finished my 4 year clinical trial and the oncologist said that I had exceeded their medical technology and know how.
And the cancer kept coming for another 3+ years.
Shorter and shorter times between recurrence.

So.... I'm left here thinking that you aren't as brilliant as you believe you are, or as you want others to believe you are.

I have no high estimation of my brilliantness.
Nor do I think your survival is as miraculous as you think it is.
Many people have similar stories.
Bookshops have shelves full of them.

I'd say you should stop talking and look closely at the nature of the make up of reality.
Everything is made up of atoms. DNA is made up of atoms.

A Science Odyssey: DNA Workshop: Replication

Cancer is a breakdown at the atomic level of the DNA.

https://www.nj.gov/dep/rpp/radon/school/scldown/bioinv6.pdf

Thus, to repair the DNA and restore normally operating system, it needs to take place at the atomic level.

Until then, cancer will just continue to return and grow unobstructed.
The rate at which it grows is determined at the DNA or atomic level, based on the information contained therein.

Looking at today's news on Google news, there's a collection of articles about the discovery that information can be stored on the quantum level.

Full Coverage - Google News

See the latest updates, context, and perspectives about this story.

news.google.com

I'll let you work through the reports yourself.

The level of expertise and knowledge and understanding to design something so profound is beyond the capability of humans today. Perhaps in a few decades, to hundreds of years into the future... but not here, and not now.

Thanks Steve I'll take a look.

This however raises another question.
We look at nature and we see, everywhere, amazing things beyond human understanding.
Christians tell me that everything we see was created by God.
Then they point to the Bible and tell me that that is God's word. That very same God.
I don't see anything in the Bible comparable to the universe around us.

It's not an assumption.
The bible is pretty clear about this issue.

1Jn 2:19 WEB They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

This is just one of several, perhaps a few dozen different items describing the issue of people who quit.

John 3:19 says it's because people love their own ways more than they want God and Jesus in their lives.

Matthew 13 says that it's because people realize that following Jesus is more difficult than they want to deal with. Another one describes people who get caught up in the issues associated with this life, here and now. Later on in chapter 13, it describes people who were merely religionists who never actually met Jesus.
In other places we read about people who get too full of themselves and their egos, and they get caught up in false beliefs and assumptions, and promulgate their own beliefs and ideas.
So... in the end... it is what Jesus said would take place.

It is an assumption.
It is an assumption that the Bible is inerrant.
That everything it says must be true.
The NT is full of excuses why people don't believe.

I've been married to her since 1990.
I've been with Jesus since 1977.
So I'd say that love has completely changed my life.

Yes and that life changing love is all you.
In response to your wife, in response to Jesus.

Headlong towards self destruction.

My views are based on experience for the past 62 years of being alive.

Heavily coloured by your upbringing.

The idea that I have enough regard to think humans are of intrinsic value to YHVH is because of Jesus and the bible.
Otherwise I'd just walk away and let humans destroy themselves.

If you haven't actually seen or experienced the ugliness of the human race yet, a part of me would say-- consider yourself blessed.
Another part of me would say-- don't worry. Your day will come soon enough.

Naivete makes life easier to enjoy. Back in my youth we called it being gay.
A laid back, relaxed, easygoing sense about living. Not a care about anything beyond your awareness. Happy-go-lucky.

Experience makes life a choice.
Every day, we get up, and we choose to face encounters with others through the eyes of Jesus. We watch out for the purpose of understanding and perspective, so we don't get tripped up by the malice and other ugliness of humanity in our lives. Our own included.

Yep, the dichotomy of human nature.
We were created in the likeness and image of YHVH, and we then sinned, breaking the connection between us and YHVH.

Then our ability to sin also comes from YHVH.
The dichotomy of human nature is the choice between what benefits us as individuals only and what benefits the community as a whole.

He gave us Jesus to restore our humanity to a whole state,but not everyone wants restoration. They apparently like their own ways.

Not any more.
I need a perfect example of who my life needs to be like. I say this because he is the one to whom I will give an answer for my life.
Those to whom I once looked up have died and I can no longer engage them in discussion about the challenges I face in my life.

Everyone likes there own ways. Your own way is Jesus.
So you have known people somewhat more admirable than the failures that surround you.
Don't you think everyone has that potential within them?

 

[SteveB]

I no longer know what you're talking about.

Perhaps you should back up and recenter yourself.

I that a real option?

I always thought it was a strange statement, but according to the context, and cultural understanding of the day, apparently it is.

You keep telling us what your life's experiences are.

cultural understanding and context matters.
Furthermore, I don't detail every single incident and moment of my life. My descriptions are akin to the 35,000 ft view as a fly by.

Yes, your quote from Jesus is exactly that.

Yet you still are unable and unwilling to explain why. Very well then. Apparently this is nothing more than a game of obfuscation to you.

I do actually want to know, if there is any evidence that it is something I should be concerned about.
There isn't.

The evidence is right before you. Your body, the chair in which you sit, the bed you lay upon when you sleep, the food which you eat, the stars you view when you look up at night the sky, the camaraderie you enjoy with your friends and family, the ability to learn to perceive and understand the world around you, the foods you eat, and enjoy, the flavors you perceive in eating and drinking. The laughter, and friendships you engage in.

No, it is material what the truth actually is.

actually it's quite material.

You have yet to show me that what you claim is the actual truth.

YHVH provides evidence himself of the truth. You have to decide whether you want to know it..

I have to join YHVH's gang.

So... your problem then is that you don't actually want to know a clean conscience, enjoy stability of love, life, and eternal hope, forgiveness of your sin, and that you are a member of a family whose future is an everlasting future filled with joy, wholeness, unending satisfaction, and beauty beyond description?
curious indeed!

When the map doesn't even show that there is a bridge ahead.

Yeah it does.. it's been in place for millennia.

Like you I reached out to the God of the Bible.

unlike you, I asked. I have no idea what you mean by "reaching out." Did you extend your hand, did you ask,, did you step onto a log, what....?

If you had a preconception that there was no God you wouldn't even have asked the question.

There you go again telling me what I'm allowed to think. You're as bad as Treeplanter. Not a good practice to engage in. It requires you to make all kinds of assumptions, and forcing people to think like you. So far, I've seen nothing in your thinking which would make me think you have a good/healthy/beneficial thought processes.

Your meeting with YHVH is subjective. You can't show it to anyone else. You can't measure it.

I can't measure your intellect either. Does that mean it's subjective, not demonstrable to anyone else too?
A perfect example of bad, unhealthy, and non-beneficial thinking.

I began following through as soon as I started to have questions about the Bible and why I wasn't having the same experience as those claimed by the Christians around me. I've read many such articles.
I've been following through for more than 40 years.

What experiences are those?
I'd be more concerned about your experiences being different from the biblical narrative than other people.
I've never met another Christian who got shot in the throat and received healing. And I've known several people who follow Jesus and have died from their cancer.
I've met exceedingly few Christians married to black people. Mostly it's a white marrying whites, blacks marrying blacks, black men marrying white women, but maybe 2 or 3 couples where the man is white, and the woman is black.

I'm sure your experiences are real. I merely doubt there origin.

there was no "there" origin. There is however a "their" origin.
Your doubts are not valid for my not having legitimate experiences, with the True and Living God, YHVH.
Remember-- you're the one telling me you've never actually met YHVH. So, I find myself wondering how you could possibly know.

What psychological crimes & motivational psychosis?

You demonstrated it above in your comments.... you doubt the veracity/source of my experiences, you test your own lack of experience against other people, instead of the bible.

My educational history has been weighted toward the hard sciences. Quite materialistic and logic heavy.

Which means.... what?
I studied physics and math. Those were referred to in college as the hard sciences. I suppose if I were to consider them, they too were quite materialistic, and logic heavy. primal logic was required to learn both.

Hundreds of people don't have the education that I have had, many people have a tendency to fall into logical traps. I myself am not immune to them. Many people fall for things like correlation implying causation. Argument from popularity or argument from incredulity etc.

Curious..... so you're not immune to logic traps, yet somehow you are immune when it comes to YHVH, and learning to understand what's entailed in learning to follow Jesus.
Why is that?
What makes someone who is not immune to logic traps, instantaneously immune to logic traps, with regards to Jesus, YHVH and the bible?
This is why I find your claims suspect... At the very least.
So.... since you've decided that I couldn't possibly have been curious if YHVH was real, and the gospel of Jesus true/real, unless I was predisposed to an apriori belief that God was real, you've opened yourself up to this immunity issue.

We are often quick to make connections where there are none.

Curious how you're immune to that. So, since you've obviously made quick connections with what you think can happen, and not happen, with regards to YHVH, I'd say you have a problem.... Oh... wait, you're immune to that aren't you!
I'm curious what you learned in your "hard science, quite materialistic and heavy on logic" courses.
I attended a state university here I live, as well as a state community college.
The curious tthing is.... it wasn't materialistic. It simply was. I was never taught that the world in which we lived was solely a materialistic world. Nor was I taught that logic, in order to be valid logic, had to be a materialistic logic, in order to be correct.

F_g always = G * m_1 * m_2 / r_hat^2
F_E = E/q
F always = (F * sin(theta) )^2 + (F * cos(theta))^2.

So, I'm not sure how your "hard science" can be solely materialistic, when E, F, q, G, etc.... are not materialistic. They're fields, which by virtue of their reality, are non-material. And that's simple logic. No heavy lifting, no tripping, just simple logic.

The B field, the H field, the Poynting Vector, the E field, the E&M spectrum, forces.... all non-material. So.... what exactly is material about "hard" science?
Science is defined as

Our definition of science - The Science Council ~

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.

sciencecouncil.org

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

So.... the pursuit and application of knowledge, and understanding of the natural and social world, following a systematic methodology, based on evidence....
Please.... describe to me what is materialistic about the pursuit and application of knowledge.
How about a description for the materialistic nature of understanding.
I've never once seen materialistic in the social world. It's a series of non-materialistic interactions amongst humans with one another.

So, when you tell me quite materialistic, and heavy on logic..... you're not talking the real world. You're talking a world view, which itself is not materialistic.

 

[SteveB]

Using your example it's more like you telling me you've seen this amazing bug but it flew away. And you wonder why that isn't good enough for me. Why I don't just believe you.

I'm thinking you need it to have flown away so you can deny it's reality.
Remember--- you have a materialistic worldview, which you claim is heavy on logic. When someone tells me heavy.... they're describing a logic I've never seen before. Something that carries mass.
Logic is mass-less. It's thought, borne out by reason. Reason too is mass-less.

So... "quite materialistic" and "heavy on logic".... those are worldviews, which are built on preconceptions, and bias. Beliefs, not the observation of evidence.
The bug has been in my hand the whole time. Your beliefs however claim the bug has flown away. That's a you thing.
You're expecting a bug that fits your materialistic, and heavy-logic-laden worldview. This bug is unlike any bug observed before. Science--- as defined by the science council-- says pursuit application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world, following a systematic methodology, based on evidence.
the bug is evidence.
My hand is evidence.
The position of the bug on my palm-up, relaxed, out-stretched hand is evidence.
The weather, air, natural environment, etc... all evidence.
A systematic methodology is simple observation. It entails asking questions to better understand that natural and social world.
Since there's only one bug in my hand, we can indeed assume there are more like it, but we don't actually know, because I only have the one bug.
If you start speculating, based on your "heavy" logic, you're imposing your biases, and preconceptions on this bug sitting on my palm-up, relaxed/outstretched hand.

Your claim that I could not have asked YHVH if he was real unless I had some idea beforehand.... THAT's not science. THAT's not even materialistic. It's "heavy" logic, which is an oxymoron. Logic is mass-less. You're assuming things not in evidence.

Are you telling me that no doctors are religious?
That they would never think of using the word miracle for anything short of divine intervention?

Nope. Again, you're imposing your biases, and preconceptions on what YOU think Doctors are/doing/being.
There's no evidence before us, one way or the other. None of my doctors ever claimed to be one way or the other-- to me. So, I don't have any evidence, one way or the other.
I did however have one doctor who told me--- I'm a medical scientist. I don't believe in God.
Yet he was the one closest to me, and noted the capacity for hope I had, which exceeded his previous observations--- which was why he stated it. It as at that point where I explained Jesus to him.

They were clearly observing evidence which they deemed to exceed any other evidence they'd observed before.
In their experience as medical doctors, and board certified oncologists, as melanoma specialists, their observations and previous medical statistics provided evidence that showed melanoma, stage four melanoma, typically resulted in the death of the patient within one to two years.
My case was so profoundly different in their observations, that they declared it miraculous.... with no input from me on what my beliefs were at the time.

Because those with a religious bent are more apt to see miracles in the merely extraordinary.

You're more than welcome to believe whatever you want.... but in doing so--- you're making a definition you've provided no evidence for.
I.e., "heavy" logic, which is nothing more than speculation.

Hope is hope. It's like exercise, you don't need to know the biology to get the benefits.

Yet you offer no evidence to corroborate that. Thus, you're not talking science.... hard or otherwise.

Pascal was deeply religious.
He couldn't conceive of anything that didn't have it's roots in God. We have moved on from there.

I.e., you've decided that he doesn't fit your preconceived notions of science. In spite of the fact that he was a "hard" scientist.
I.e., mathematics, and physics.

You're blowing your hypotheses out of the water here by dismissing people who have "hard" science professions.
So.... you'd better start defining what your actual "hard science education which is quite materialistic and heavy on logic" actually is.

It's curious how many people who were the discoverers of a multitude of various elements of modern day scientific knowledge were believers in the biblical God, YHVH.

List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

With people like this, who not "founded" but discovered already existing ideas, which existed from the beginning, through simple observation of the evidence of the natural and social world..... I find the claims of atheists who "studied hard science which was quite materialistic, and heavy on logic" to be humorous at best, and eruditely arrogant at the least.

Remember-- science is defined as---

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

Of course there could. The idea of God is enough. Just like the placebo effect.
The nation of Israel is proof of the power of the idea. It isn't proof of the truth of the idea itself.

The evidence says otherwise.

I don't understand where you are getting these ideas from what I have said.
You seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow man.

Observation of the evidence.... as noted in the science council's definition of science.
You strike me as having far too high an opinion of your fellow man, not based on any observable evidence.

Remember--- the definition of science, from the Science Council is---

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

I'm not rationalizing my own bias and preconceptions to any greater extent than you.

Actually, you are, based solely on your own words---

My educational history has been weighted toward the hard sciences. Quite materialistic and logic heavy.

My physics and mathematics education was just that.... physics, and math. I was taught principles, precepts, fields, .......

 

[SteveB]

I no longer know what you're talking about.

That's no surprise.
You should learn actual science, and not "quite materialistic and heavy logic."

Our definition of science - The Science Council ~

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.

sciencecouncil.org

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

I that a real option?

I have no idea if you're a real option.
I know Jesus said that the kingdom of God has experienced violence, and the violent take it by force......


“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

 

[SteveB]

I in know way no everything about the human psyche.
It is something that I have a long time interest in but that is all.

I have a long time interest in computer programming. But that doesn't make me a programmer, in spite of having taken a couple of university courses, and done some.
There's a huge difference...
So, thank you for clarifying. From now on I'll dismiss your attempts to quantify my ideas to fit your biases.

Some experience, some observation.

On the giving or receiving end?

I have no high estimation of my brilliantness.
Nor do I think your survival is as miraculous as you think it is.

Sounds like you just countered your statement about your estimation of your brilliance.
You don't have enough knowledge to be able to scientifically reason whether my survival is miraculous or not.

Remember--- science is defined by the SCIENCE COUNCIL as---

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world.
The best you're able to achieve here is an observation at an unknown distance from the actual events.... the rest is speculation....

Many people have similar stories.
Bookshops have shelves full of them.

Show me.
Doctors telling them their cancer should've killed them, but because it didn't do what this type of cancer normally does, you're a miracle, without any anecdotal input from the patience to whom they're telling?

Thanks Steve I'll take a look.

This however raises another question.
We look at nature and we see, everywhere, amazing things beyond human understanding.

EXACTLY.
Which themselves should raise the question of why. Where do these amazing things come from? Are they really the result of randomly occurring atomic collisions that just happened to have occurred, much like me falling on my derriere.... ? Seriously?

Christians tell me that everything we see was created by God.

That is what the bible says....

Then they point to the Bible and tell me that that is God's word. That very same God.
I don't see anything in the Bible comparable to the universe around us.

The bible is words on paper.... or for some of us, a collection of highly organized binary components, stored in an equally highly organized and designed computer chip, designed for the purpose of storing, and then translating those binary components into elements I can readily understand.

These things are simply saying--- see that out there? This is why, this is Whom, and this is what he's interested in doing for you, in exchange for the trouble you're perpetrating.

The bible gives context to what I see in the heavens....
Ever wonder about the concept of entropy?
Why did everything that goes to entropy start off organized in the first place?
Shouldn't it have started in a fully entropic state?
I.e., totally disorganized.
The bible explains why--- God/YHVH organized it, Adam ate a fruit which he was warned would result in his death (entropy), and in honoring Adam's choice, God stepped back, and everything, ever since, goes to a fully disorganized state.

Eg., in Genesis one, the word for morning is boker. The word for evening is erev.
The root for boker is order. The root for erev is disorder....

Ever notice that we read--- and the evening and the morning were the ...... day....
Each day of creation, we go from a state of disorder to a state of order.

Question with regard to dual meanings in the Hebrew words "Erev" and "Boker" in Genesis 1

This is a long and sometimes rambling account of my investigation into the creation account, specifically with regard to the word "Boker" or morning. It is one of the most fascinating concepts I have

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

What Is the Origin of the Words Erev and Boker? - The Jewish Link

Erev and boker are words that are well-known to us. But exactly how did they develop the meanings of “evening” and “morning”? The verb ayin-resh-bet (henceforth “ARB”) has several meanings; one of them is “mix.” See, e.g., Ps. 106:35: va-yitarvu va-goyim. The “mix” meaning very likely lies...

jewishlink.news

It is an assumption.
It is an assumption that the Bible is inerrant.
That everything it says must be true.
The NT is full of excuses why people don't believe.

Ah, well... so science has absolutely nothing to do with it, and it's all about you knowing what you say nobody else can know, unless they agree with you.
So much for that falling prey to traps, and immunity, eh?

Yes and that life changing love is all you.
In response to your wife, in response to Jesus.


Heavily coloured by your upbringing.


Then our ability to sin also comes from YHVH.
The dichotomy of human nature is the choice between what benefits us as individuals only and what benefits the community as a whole.


Everyone likes there own ways. Your own way is Jesus.
So you have known people somewhat more admirable than the failures that surround you.
Don't you think everyone has that potential within them?

And your own way is you.
As Jesus is way better than either of us, I'm good with that.

Remember-- Jesus came to save sinners. So, if you're not a sinner, then who he is, and what he offers won't matter to you.

 

[Tiburon]

The evidence is right before you. Your body, the chair in which you sit, the bed you lay upon when you sleep, the food which you eat, the stars you view when you look up at night the sky, the camaraderie you enjoy with your friends and family, the ability to learn to perceive and understand the world around you, the foods you eat, and enjoy, the flavors you perceive in eating and drinking. The laughter, and friendships you engage in.

This is evidence of the life we live now.
It is not evidence of a God or an afterlife. It is not evidence of a possible eternity of misery and agony and anguish.

YHVH provides evidence himself of the truth. You have to decide whether you want to know it..

So... your problem then is that you don't actually want to know a clean conscience, enjoy stability of love, life, and eternal hope, forgiveness of your sin, and that you are a member of a family whose future is an everlasting future filled with joy, wholeness, unending satisfaction, and beauty beyond description?
curious indeed!

My problem is that I see no evidence that any of this is true.

unlike you, I asked. I have no idea what you mean by "reaching out." Did you extend your hand, did you ask,, did you step onto a log, what....?

Are you feigning ignorance or is it real? When you asked the question of God, you were reaching out.

There you go again telling me what I'm allowed to think. You're as bad as Treeplanter. Not a good practice to engage in. It requires you to make all kinds of assumptions, and forcing people to think like you. So far, I've seen nothing in your thinking which would make me think you have a good/healthy/beneficial thought processes.

I'm not telling you what you are allowed to think.
I'm saying that, when you claim you had no preconception about God before asking him to make himself known to you, I don't believe you.

I can't measure your intellect either. Does that mean it's subjective, not demonstrable to anyone else too?
A perfect example of bad, unhealthy, and non-beneficial thinking.

Of course you can measure my intellect.
You can give me an IQ test.

What experiences are those?
I'd be more concerned about your experiences being different from the biblical narrative than other people.
I've never met another Christian who got shot in the throat and received healing. And I've known several people who follow Jesus and have died from their cancer.
I've met exceedingly few Christians married to black people. Mostly it's a white marrying whites, blacks marrying blacks, black men marrying white women, but maybe 2 or 3 couples where the man is white, and the woman is black.

The same experiences you claim to have had.
The same experiences the bible tells me I should expect.

there was no "there" origin. There is however a "their" origin.
Your doubts are not valid for my not having legitimate experiences, with the True and Living God, YHVH.
Remember-- you're the one telling me you've never actually met YHVH. So, I find myself wondering how you could possibly know.

Of course my doubts are valid?
Any time someone claims an extraordinary experience that you have not had and for which they can show no evidence, doubts are valid.

You demonstrated it above in your comments.... you doubt the veracity/source of my experiences, you test your own lack of experience against other people, instead of the bible.

I test my lack of experience against both.
You are just trying to find excuses for why God and I fail to connect.

Which means.... what?
I studied physics and math. Those were referred to in college as the hard sciences. I suppose if I were to consider them, they too were quite materialistic, and logic heavy. primal logic was required to learn both.

You answered your own question. Well done.

Curious..... so you're not immune to logic traps, yet somehow you are immune when it comes to YHVH, and learning to understand what's entailed in learning to follow Jesus.
Why is that?
What makes someone who is not immune to logic traps, instantaneously immune to logic traps, with regards to Jesus, YHVH and the bible?
This is why I find your claims suspect... At the very least.
So.... since you've decided that I couldn't possibly have been curious if YHVH was real, and the gospel of Jesus true/real, unless I was predisposed to an apriori belief that God was real, you've opened yourself up to this immunity issue.

Curious how you're immune to that. So, since you've obviously made quick connections with what you think can happen, and not happen, with regards to YHVH, I'd say you have a problem.... Oh... wait, you're immune to that aren't you!

My immunity to logic traps was not instantaneous nor is it limited to Jesus, YHVH and the bible.
Immunity to logic traps is developed by being made aware of them in your way of thinking and assessing information.

I'm curious what you learned in your "hard science, quite materialistic and heavy on logic" courses.
I attended a state university here I live, as well as a state community college.
The curious tthing is.... it wasn't materialistic. It simply was. I was never taught that the world in which we lived was solely a materialistic world. Nor was I taught that logic, in order to be valid logic, had to be a materialistic logic, in order to be correct.

F_g always = G * m_1 * m_2 / r_hat^2
F_E = E/q
F always = (F * sin(theta) )^2 + (F * cos(theta))^2.

So, I'm not sure how your "hard science" can be solely materialistic, when E, F, q, G, etc.... are not materialistic. They're fields, which by virtue of their reality, are non-material. And that's simple logic. No heavy lifting, no tripping, just simple logic.

The B field, the H field, the Poynting Vector, the E field, the E&M spectrum, forces.... all non-material. So.... what exactly is material about "hard" science?

So do the "hard sciences" have a spiritual component?
Did you include the influence of God in the calculations of fluid dynamics?
They pertain to physical things that can be measured. If you don't want to call them materialistic then use another word.
"Hard sciences" are things like physics, mathematics, chemistry.
"Soft sciences" are things like psychology, anthropology, history etc.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Tiburon]

I have a long time interest in computer programming. But that doesn't make me a programmer, in spite of having taken a couple of university courses, and done some.
There's a huge difference...
So, thank you for clarifying. From now on I'll dismiss your attempts to quantify my ideas to fit your biases.

You have some knowledge of computer programming.
Does that make you a programmer? No.
Does that mean you likely have a better understanding than those who have no experience?
Yes.
You dismiss my responses as to quantify your ideas to fit my biases anyway.

Sounds like you just countered your statement about your estimation of your brilliance.
You don't have enough knowledge to be able to scientifically reason whether my survival is miraculous or not.

Neither does anyone.
We have no way to scientifically differentiate between the 'miraculous' and the merely extraordinary.

Remember--- science is defined by the SCIENCE COUNCIL as---

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world.
The best you're able to achieve here is an observation at an unknown distance from the actual events.... the rest is speculation....

And The best you're able to achieve here is an observation at a closer distance to the actual events.

Show me.
Doctors telling them their cancer should've killed them, but because it didn't do what this type of cancer normally does, you're a miracle, without any anecdotal input from the patience to whom they're telling?

Show you what? A bookstore?
Any look at statistics show you that "what this type of cancer normally does" isn't every outcome.
There is a whole range of outcomes.

EXACTLY.
Which themselves should raise the question of why. Where do these amazing things come from? Are they really the result of randomly occurring atomic collisions that just happened to have occurred, much like me falling on my derriere.... ? Seriously?

That is what the bible says....
The bible is words on paper.... or for some of us, a collection of highly organized binary components, stored in an equally highly organized and designed computer chip, designed for the purpose of storing, and then translating those binary components into elements I can readily understand.

These things are simply saying--- see that out there? This is why, this is Whom, and this is what he's interested in doing for you, in exchange for the trouble you're perpetrating.

The bible gives context to what I see in the heavens....
Ever wonder about the concept of entropy?
Why did everything that goes to entropy start off organized in the first place?
Shouldn't it have started in a fully entropic state?
I.e., totally disorganized.
The bible explains why--- God/YHVH organized it, Adam ate a fruit which he was warned would result in his death (entropy), and in honoring Adam's choice, God stepped back, and everything, ever since, goes to a fully disorganized state.

Eg., in Genesis one, the word for morning is boker. The word for evening is erev.
The root for boker is order. The root for erev is disorder....

Ever notice that we read--- and the evening and the morning were the ...... day....
Each day of creation, we go from a state of disorder to a state of order.

Question with regard to dual meanings in the Hebrew words "Erev" and "Boker" in Genesis 1

This is a long and sometimes rambling account of my investigation into the creation account, specifically with regard to the word "Boker" or morning. It is one of the most fascinating concepts I have

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

What Is the Origin of the Words Erev and Boker? - The Jewish Link

Erev and boker are words that are well-known to us. But exactly how did they develop the meanings of “evening” and “morning”? The verb ayin-resh-bet (henceforth “ARB”) has several meanings; one of them is “mix.” See, e.g., Ps. 106:35: va-yitarvu va-goyim. The “mix” meaning very likely lies...

jewishlink.news

Ah, well... so science has absolutely nothing to do with it, and it's all about you knowing what you say nobody else can know, unless they agree with you.
So much for that falling prey to traps, and immunity, eh?

And your own way is you.
As Jesus is way better than either of us, I'm good with that.

Remember-- Jesus came to save sinners. So, if you're not a sinner, then who he is, and what he offers won't matter to you.

It does raise the question of where do these amazing things come from?
The Bible contains the answer that ancient Hebrews came up with.
A very simplistic, very man made answer.

 

[Tiburon]

I'm thinking you need it to have flown away so you can deny it's reality.
Remember--- you have a materialistic worldview, which you claim is heavy on logic. When someone tells me heavy.... they're describing a logic I've never seen before. Something that carries mass.
Logic is mass-less. It's thought, borne out by reason. Reason too is mass-less.

So... "quite materialistic" and "heavy on logic".... those are worldviews, which are built on preconceptions, and bias. Beliefs, not the observation of evidence.
The bug has been in my hand the whole time. Your beliefs however claim the bug has flown away. That's a you thing.
You're expecting a bug that fits your materialistic, and heavy-logic-laden worldview. This bug is unlike any bug observed before. Science--- as defined by the science council-- says pursuit application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world, following a systematic methodology, based on evidence.
the bug is evidence.
My hand is evidence.
The position of the bug on my palm-up, relaxed, out-stretched hand is evidence.
The weather, air, natural environment, etc... all evidence.
A systematic methodology is simple observation. It entails asking questions to better understand that natural and social world.
Since there's only one bug in my hand, we can indeed assume there are more like it, but we don't actually know, because I only have the one bug.
If you start speculating, based on your "heavy" logic, you're imposing your biases, and preconceptions on this bug sitting on my palm-up, relaxed/outstretched hand.

Your claim that I could not have asked YHVH if he was real unless I had some idea beforehand.... THAT's not science. THAT's not even materialistic. It's "heavy" logic, which is an oxymoron. Logic is mass-less. You're assuming things not in evidence.

You are not presenting me with the bug. You are just telling me of your experience with the bug. You have no pictures of the bug, you can present no residue that it may have left behind, all you can give me is a tale of your experience. So I believe you had an experience but I have no way of knowing if it was real or you imagined it.
I claim that you would not have asked YHVH if he was real unless you had some idea beforehand.
You did have some idea. You had been raised in it and had heard if from those around you.

Nope. Again, you're imposing your biases, and preconceptions on what YOU think Doctors are/doing/being.
There's no evidence before us, one way or the other. None of my doctors ever claimed to be one way or the other-- to me. So, I don't have any evidence, one way or the other.
I did however have one doctor who told me--- I'm a medical scientist. I don't believe in God.
Yet he was the one closest to me, and noted the capacity for hope I had, which exceeded his previous observations--- which was why he stated it. It as at that point where I explained Jesus to him.

They were clearly observing evidence which they deemed to exceed any other evidence they'd observed before.
In their experience as medical doctors, and board certified oncologists, as melanoma specialists, their observations and previous medical statistics provided evidence that showed melanoma, stage four melanoma, typically resulted in the death of the patient within one to two years.
My case was so profoundly different in their observations, that they declared it miraculous.... with no input from me on what my beliefs were at the time.

You live in a country that is heavily Christian so the likelihood that some of your doctors were Christian is high.
Doctors are just regular people with specialist education.
People often use the word miraculous when they see something extraordinary.
Doctors have no more insight into what is miraculous than anyone else.

Yet you offer no evidence to corroborate that. Thus, you're not talking science.... hard or otherwise.

Do you want me to cite some studies.
It is well known that a positive outlook has a strong impact upon outcomes in cancer patients.

I.e., you've decided that he doesn't fit your preconceived notions of science. In spite of the fact that he was a "hard" scientist.
I.e., mathematics, and physics.

You're blowing your hypotheses out of the water here by dismissing people who have "hard" science professions.
So.... you'd better start defining what your actual "hard science education which is quite materialistic and heavy on logic" actually is.

It's curious how many people who were the discoverers of a multitude of various elements of modern day scientific knowledge were believers in the biblical God, YHVH.

It's not curious. Most of them lived in a time when Christianity was the dominant paradigm.
They didn't examine their beliefs in the same way they examined the focus of their scientific endeavours.

List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

With people like this, who not "founded" but discovered already existing ideas, which existed from the beginning, through simple observation of the evidence of the natural and social world..... I find the claims of atheists who "studied hard science which was quite materialistic, and heavy on logic" to be humorous at best, and eruditely arrogant at the least.

Remember-- science is defined as---

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

You keep repeating this. I don't know why.

The evidence says otherwise.

Please expound.

Observation of the evidence.... as noted in the science council's definition of science.
You strike me as having far too high an opinion of your fellow man, not based on any observable evidence.

Remember--- the definition of science, from the Science Council is---

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.​

Actually, you are, based solely on your own words---

My physics and mathematics education was just that.... physics, and math. I was taught principles, precepts, fields, .......

You obviously have a low opinion of your fellow man. Based on observable evidence, is man predominantly good or predominantly bad?
Is society getting worse or better or just staying the same?
You learned physics and mathematics. Have you applied the same principles of measurement and verification to your religious beliefs?
Or do you give those ideas a free pass?

 

[SteveB]

This is evidence of the life we live now.
It is not evidence of a God or an afterlife. It is not evidence of a possible eternity of misery and agony and anguish.

Well, you can indeed say that. As I said to Pixie last night, if you don't want to know the truth now, then do nothing, and wait until you die. You'll have all the evidence you need, but you won't be able to do anything about it.

Quite frankly, that seems pretty foolish to spend your time on an internet forum arguing with complete strangers about a topic you know nothing about, and refuse to take the time and effort to learn the truth, while claiming that your ignorance is somehow greater than the knowledge and understanding that YHVH says he will give us to actually know him, and as a result have verification of the eternal perspective he gives us.

My problem is that I see no evidence that any of this is true.

No. The problem is that you don't want to know the truth, so you look only at what you want to be evidence, and ignore the actual evidence he's given us.

As I recall, the term is selective sight.

Are you feigning ignorance or is it real? When you asked the question of God, you were reaching out.

So, in your mind, I'm not allowed to ask?
Seems like you have a problem here that is demanding others think like you.
I'm not you.

I'm not telling you what you are allowed to think.
I'm saying that, when you claim you had no preconception about God before asking him to make himself known to you, I don't believe you.

I.e., I'm not allowed to think for myself.
What makes you think that I need you to believe me?

This is, and always has been a choice you need to make for you.

I asked. He answered. I was floored by his answer. It was profound enough to stop me in my tracks and cause me to want to know him.

Of course you can measure my intellect.
You can give me an IQ test.

So I have to use someone else's opinion to make a measurement of your intellect?
Several years ago.... about 23-24 years ago actually.... I was watching the news, and they reported that there was another type of test to measure intellect, but it was for people who were mechanically inclined. Professional craftsmen, carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers, etc..
I found it curious, because I had just started college, and was feeling pretty low regarding my intellectual states-- I'd been a high school dropout, so I questioned whether I could actually handle college.

What's Your Intelligence Type?

Did you know there are 9 types of intelligence? The question is: Which intelligence type do you have? Take our free quiz to find out!

www.scienceofpeople.com

The same experiences you claim to have had.
The same experiences the bible tells me I should expect.

Are those expectations of the experience based on your biases and preconceptions, of what's actually stated?

Of course my doubts are valid?
Any time someone claims an extraordinary experience that you have not had and for which they can show no evidence, doubts are valid.

Then instead of trying to figure out what my experiences were and are, engage YHVH yourself.
Explain to him that you are in a place where you don't think you'd actually know and understand what he'd show you, because you don't actually think he's real and knowable.

I think the description of Scrooge would be a good one for you.

The idea is that you think you should be able to figure it out, in spite of the fact that God has said that he is transcendent, and beyond our understanding, unless he makes himself knowable to us.

I test my lack of experience against both.
You are just trying to find excuses for why God and I fail to connect.

Nope. The bible is filled with descriptions of why people fail in their connections with YHVH.
It appears that it's due primarily to the refusal to let go of biases, preconceptions, egocentric behavior and ideas.
So, I don't need to find anything. You have to live with the consequences for choosing.
If you choose godly wisdom and understanding, you will enjoy eternal life.
If you choose folly, and selfishness, you will perish.

You answered your own question. Well done.

Ironically, my question was of your thoughts, not mine.

My immunity to logic traps was not instantaneous nor is it limited to Jesus, YHVH and the bible.
Immunity to logic traps is developed by being made aware of them in your way of thinking and assessing information.

Ok.

So do the "hard sciences" have a spiritual component?

??
I hadn't specifically thought of it in this way. Considering that he created everything, and gave humans the ability to learn to understand and develop ideas that explain the world in which we live.... sure.

Did you include the influence of God in the calculations of fluid dynamics?

Why didn't you? You're the one who is claiming to be more intelligent than I am.

They pertain to physical things that can be measured. If you don't want to call them materialistic then use another word.
"Hard sciences" are things like physics, mathematics, chemistry.
"Soft sciences" are things like psychology, anthropology, history etc.

Ok. Then we'd be in agreement.

Intellectual prowess is only a small fragment of the human experience.

What's Your Intelligence Type?

Did you know there are 9 types of intelligence? The question is: Which intelligence type do you have? Take our free quiz to find out!

www.scienceofpeople.com

 

[Tiburon]

Well, you can indeed say that. As I said to Pixie last night, if you don't want to know the truth now, then do nothing, and wait until you die. You'll have all the evidence you need, but you won't be able to do anything about it.

Quite frankly, that seems pretty foolish to spend your time on an internet forum arguing with complete strangers about a topic you know nothing about, and refuse to take the time and effort to learn the truth, while claiming that your ignorance is somehow greater than the knowledge and understanding that YHVH says he will give us to actually know him, and as a result have verification of the eternal perspective he gives us.

No. The problem is that you don't want to know the truth, so you look only at what you want to be evidence, and ignore the actual evidence he's given us.

The problem is that you can't show me that what you claim is the truth actually is the truth.
What actual evidence am I ignoring?

So, in your mind, I'm not allowed to ask?
Seems like you have a problem here that is demanding others think like you.
I'm not you.

No. I'm saying that I think you are being disingenuous when you claim to have had no expectations when you asked the question.

I.e., I'm not allowed to think for myself.
What makes you think that I need you to believe me?

I don't know that you need me to believe you but you want me to believe you.

This is, and always has been a choice you need to make for you.
I asked. He answered. I was floored by his answer. It was profound enough to stop me in my tracks and cause me to want to know him.

Yet you can't tell us what that "answer" was.

So I have to use someone else's opinion to make a measurement of your intellect?
Several years ago.... about 23-24 years ago actually.... I was watching the news, and they reported that there was another type of test to measure intellect, but it was for people who were mechanically inclined. Professional craftsmen, carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers, etc..
I found it curious, because I had just started college, and was feeling pretty low regarding my intellectual states-- I'd been a high school dropout, so I questioned whether I could actually handle college.

What's Your Intelligence Type?

Did you know there are 9 types of intelligence? The question is: Which intelligence type do you have? Take our free quiz to find out!

www.scienceofpeople.com

You use someone else's opinion to make a measurement of anything.
You use someone's opinion that distance should be measured in miles, that volume should be measured in ounces etc.

Are those expectations of the experience based on your biases and preconceptions, of what's actually stated?

Then instead of trying to figure out what my experiences were and are, engage YHVH yourself.
Explain to him that you are in a place where you don't think you'd actually know and understand what he'd show you, because you don't actually think he's real and knowable.

Again with the excuses.
You have to make the fact that I didn't connect with "YHVH", a failure on my part.

The idea is that you think you should be able to figure it out, in spite of the fact that God has said that he is transcendent, and beyond our understanding, unless he makes himself knowable to us.

And for me he has not made himself knowable.

Nope. The bible is filled with descriptions of why people fail in their connections with YHVH.
It appears that it's due primarily to the refusal to let go of biases, preconceptions, egocentric behavior and ideas.
So, I don't need to find anything. You have to live with the consequences for choosing.
If you choose godly wisdom and understanding, you will enjoy eternal life.
If you choose folly, and selfishness, you will perish.

Excuses.

Why didn't you? You're the one who is claiming to be more intelligent than I am.

If you say so.

Ok. Then we'd be in agreement.
Intellectual prowess is only a small fragment of the human experience.

What's Your Intelligence Type?

Did you know there are 9 types of intelligence? The question is: Which intelligence type do you have? Take our free quiz to find out!

www.scienceofpeople.com

Of course it is only a small fragment of the human experience.

 

[SteveB]

The problem is that you can't show me that what you claim is the truth actually is the truth.

It's not my responsibility to show you the truth beyond giving you the gospel of Jesus. It's up to you to decide to do what Jesus said, at which point, he's stated he will demonstrate himself as truth to you!

And quite frankly, I can't understand why you would want anything other than YHVH himself to make himself knowable to you. I can't understand why you should be unwilling to engage him on his terms, so he can engage you right where you are, and instead sit around wasting your life arguing with complete and total strangers, expecting them to do what only you and Jesus are capable of handling.


Your tactic makes absolutely no sense. It comes across as a child's game of peekaboo.

What actual evidence am I ignoring?

The evidence that YHVH himself gives.

No. I'm saying that I think you are being disingenuous when you claim to have had no expectations when you asked the question.

Then I'd say it sucks to be you.

I don't know that you need me to believe you but you want me to believe you.

It's your eternity.
Where do you want to spend your eternity?
The bible has been in existence for the past 3500 years.

Yet you can't tell us what that "answer" was.

I've repeatedly stated what the answer was.

He did exactly what the bible says he would.

You use someone else's opinion to make a measurement of anything.

Nope. Only to determine whether I'm interested in knowing for myself.
In the end however, it's a choice that I have to decide for myself.

You use someone's opinion that distance should be measured in miles, that volume should be measured in ounces etc.

Initially.
Different items though.
I recall being shown how to do my own measurements on these things back during my childhood. The first couple of times, after having done so, I knew for myself.

Again with the excuses.

No need.

You have to make the fact that I didn't connect with "YHVH", a failure on my part.

You're the one who said that you failed.
According to YHVH, he was right there, hands outstretched, engaging you.

And for me he has not made himself knowable.

He says otherwise.

Excuses.

Only yours.

If you say so.

Yet you refuse to engage him on his terms so he will do exactly what he says he will.

Of course it is only a small fragment of the human experience.

It's ironic how you are stuck on the finite, and act as though it's the infinite, arguing with complete strangers that it's the sum total of all reality.

 

[Tiburon]

It's not my responsibility to show you the truth beyond giving you the gospel of Jesus. It's up to you to decide to do what Jesus said, at which point, he's stated he will demonstrate himself as truth to you!

And quite frankly, I can't understand why you would want anything other than YHVH himself to make himself knowable to you. I can't understand why you should be unwilling to engage him on his terms, so he can engage you right where you are, and instead sit around wasting your life arguing with complete and total strangers, expecting them to do what only you and Jesus are capable of handling.


Your tactic makes absolutely no sense. It comes across as a child's game of peekaboo.

As I keep telling you I have done what Jesus said. To no avail.
While you just keep telling me that my lack of connection with God is just because i don't want to know the truth.

The evidence that YHVH himself gives.

Which would be what?
Tales in an ancient book?

It's your eternity.
Where do you want to spend your eternity?
The bible has been in existence for the past 3500 years.

Longevity is no measure of validity. Hindu scripture has been around longer.
Also Zoroastrianism

I've repeatedly stated what the answer was.
He did exactly what the bible says he would.

That means nothing to me. The Bible says a lot of things.

Nope. Only to determine whether I'm interested in knowing for myself.
In the end however, it's a choice that I have to decide for myself.

Initially.
Different items though.
I recall being shown how to do my own measurements on these things back during my childhood. The first couple of times, after having done so, I knew for myself.

What measures did you use 'Stevens"? One Steven = 6 feet?

No need.
You're the one who said that you failed.
According to YHVH, he was right there, hands outstretched, engaging you.
He says otherwise.

People who wrote the Bible say otherwise.
In my experience they are wrong.

Only yours.
Yet you refuse to engage him on his terms so he will do exactly what he says he will.
It's ironic how you are stuck on the finite, and act as though it's the infinite, arguing with complete strangers that it's the sum total of all reality.

You refuse to accept that I have engaged him on his terms and been met with silence.
Not ironic at all. I'm stuck on the finite because I am finite. I don't act as though I am infinite. I don't try to deny death by clinging to some ancient belief.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Are they both "the precise opposite"?

Correct. That's what I said. Good reading skills.

Remember, my made-up quotes are:

Good. So you admit you made them up.

• I believe Jesus was buried a grave with the wicked, because that is what it says in Isaiah 53.

Nope, Says nothing about being buried. Can you EVER get anything right?

• Actually, I am going to back-pedal on my previous statement;

You have no choice. You keep screwing up. "Back Pedal" is your middle name.

• I have now decided I believe Jesus was buried on his own in a new tomb,

GOOD! You got something right.

So apparently your position now is:

• Isaiah got it wrong, and Jesus was not in fact assigned a grave with the wicked.

WRONG. Isaiah got it right. YOU got it wrong. Jesus was not buried.

• You do not believe standard Christian doctrine that Jesus was buried on his own in a new tomb.

And yet I do; thus your miserable failure to show me saying otherwise.

• I believe Jesus was buried a grave with the wicked, because that is what it says in Isaiah 53

You said that above. Why are you now repeating your "buried" mistake?

Now here we have stiggy saying that these two statements are "the precise opposite" of what he believes,

Correct. You said that earlier. I'm not going to repeat my praise of your reading skills.

Post #64 was made by YOU stiggy.

Correct. I'm guessing you figured that out based on my name being at the top of the post.

I think Jesus probably was buried with the wicked,

PROBABLY? LOL!

because his corpse was, at best, throw into a communal grave for criminals.

PROVE IT!

Again? For the fourth time now.

"In post # 67 stiggy said 'I am pretending to believe Jesus was buried a grave with the wicked, because that is what it says in Isaiah 53,' but then contradicted that in post # 71 when he said 'Actually, I am going to back-pedal on my previous statement; I have now decided I believe Jesus was buried on his own in a new tomb, because that is standard Christian doctrine'."*

And yet as we can easily see from post # 67 and 71, I neither said nor implied any such thing. You lied.

Whoops. Looks like it's time again for your homework assignment.

Fill in the blanks:

'"In post # _______, stiggy said '_______________,' but then back pedaled in post # _____, when he said, '___________________'.."