Jesus, religion or reality......

[SteveB]

As I keep telling you I have done what Jesus said. To no avail.

Which is what.... exactly?
Had you actually done what Jesus said, he says

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

So, this "to no avail" bit tells me that you did not in fact do what Jesus said. You may indeed have done what you think he said, but were just the ideas of men.

We do after all read,

Matthew 15: 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”

This is why people miss it.
They think they are doing what YHVH says, but are in fact just following the instructions of people who don't actually know YHVH.

We who follow Jesus are and have learned that it's all too easy to get caught in this trap. Especially if we have had a religious background.

So, you have to decide what matters more to you. Your clear and obvious egocentricity, or the truth.

Jesus said

Joh 8:30-36 WEB 30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him. 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Just trying to do something, not getting what you thought would happen, and then quitting doesn't mean that you are right. It just means that you are biased, and focusing on what YOU think.
This is exactly why you have failed.
We're to focus on the teachings of Jesus. Not religion.

While you just keep telling me that my lack of connection with God is just because i don't want to know the truth.

And?
Jesus said

Joh 8:30-36 WEB 30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him. 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

You're the one who keeps telling me that you didn't get anything, so you quit.

Which would be what?
Tales in an ancient book?

And? You're more than welcome to prove YHVH doesn't exist.

The bible actually gives you the means by which to do so.

Longevity is no measure of validity. Hindu scripture has been around longer.
Also Zoroastrianism

Then stop talking and start doing what they say.
The fact that you don't, tells me that you just want to give excuses.

That means nothing to me. The Bible says a lot of things.

I.e., you don't actually know because you don't read for the purpose of understanding, but so you can win arguments.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

1Jn 4:10 WEB In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1Jn 5:9-13 WEB 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is God’s testimony which he has testified concerning his Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who doesn’t believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son. 11 The testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life. He who doesn’t have God’s Son doesn’t have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

What measures did you use 'Stevens"? One Steven = 6 feet?

?
??‍

Never heard that one before! Funny.
Do you think that achieves demonstrating your own ignorance, or are you seeking to excuse yourself from knowing and learning the truth?

Joh 7:16-18 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Actually, the measurement is based on what Jesus said. This is exactly why it's so important to read the bible and pray regularly.

It's why we read in psalm 1, and Jeremiah 17 that those who trust in YHVH will be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, which bring forth the kind of fruit that is the result of knowing YHVH.

People who wrote the Bible say otherwise.
In my experience they are wrong.

Well then! That's it! Your experience is the defining factor!
There can't possibly be any other view!

I recall in my algebra classes, and other advanced courses, seeing and indeed, experiencing this issue.
It was exactly why my professors would tell us that we needed to show our work. We couldn't just do it in our heads, and then write down the answers.

In writing out our work, we would show the processes that we are using, which will further show that we're paying attention, instead of just being lazy. In my classes, showing our work would give us the added benefit of our professors pointing out where we went wrong, if we didn't get the right result.

You refuse to accept that I have engaged him on his terms and been met with silence.

You're the one who is unwilling to "show your work" by detailing the processes you took, so it can be compared to the bible.

Jesus was quite clear about this.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Joh 8:30-36 WEB 30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him. 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

So, what did you think was going to happen here?
Are you looking for special consideration, that I should just take your word for it, and then not ask any questions to gain a better understanding and perspective?

Not ironic at all. I'm stuck on the finite because I am finite. I don't act as though I am infinite. I don't try to deny death by clinging to some ancient belief.

Yet you are. You keep telling me that your lack of experience is definitive proof that YHVH isn't real and knowable.

 

[Whatsisface]

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

So, this "to no avail" bit tells me that you did not in fact do what Jesus said. You may indeed have done what you think he said, but were just the ideas of men.

So, you've got to love Jesus in order for Jesus to keep his word and somehow let you know He's there for you. Because you Love Him in the first place, before you know He's there, which all this emotion flying around how do you know you've found the real thing, or it's just confirmation bias? Is there anything you can say that demonstrates you have found the real thing?

 

[SteveB]

You are not presenting me with the bug. You are just telling me of your experience with the bug.

That's because you don't want to visit me.

You have no pictures of the bug, you can present no residue that it may have left behind, all you can give me is a tale of your experience.

These are items that would be viewable in a visit.

So I believe you had an experience but I have no way of knowing if it was real or you imagined it.

Which would be answered by visiting me.

I claim that you would not have asked YHVH if he was real unless you had some idea beforehand.

Yes. That is your claim.
A claim I view as being based on your not wanting to know, so you refuse to engage him on his terms.
Thankfully, your permission is not a requirement for me to live my life. Especially when you weren't even around to have a right to make the claim in the first place.
In fact, I find myself wondering why you should think that your opinion on this matters, 45 years after the fact.
Do you actually think that you have a valid basis for telling me that you are bothered by a question and life experience I had nearly 45 years ago?
Seems to me that this is tyrannical thinking at the least.

You did have some idea. You had been raised in it and had heard if from those around you.

That's your opinion.
I typically wouldn't think to ask questions about things I was unaware of.
So, yes, throughout the 60's and first 3/4 of the 70's, I'd heard about God, Jesus, the bible.
I was done with religion in general. I was pretty much ready to go into the next phase of my life.
I was presented with something that I had not heard about before, so as I was done with talking to other people about it, I did what I had learned before--
Instead of listening to secondhand rumors, go directly to the source. Or, as we said back then-- go to the horse's mouth.
I had no previous experience with Jesus or God, and the religion I grew up with was a dead thing to me, it was pretty clear to me that if I mattered the way the gospel of Jesus says i did, God would answer.
If not, then i move on and live the life I wanted. Whatever that may have become.

You live in a country that is heavily Christian so the likelihood that some of your doctors were Christian is high.

?
So, because I lived among drug addicts, alcoholics, sexually promiscuous, and rock and roll lovers, if I follow your logic, I'd be a drug addicted alcoholic who screws around, listening to rock and roll music all day long.

??‍

Well. At least it can't be said that you're as bright as you believe yourself to be.

Doctors are just regular people with specialist education.

Hmm.... so regular people who are highly educated aren't as smart as you are?

People often use the word miraculous when they see something extraordinary.

Normal people maybe. I'd say that doctors are far too educated to be so flippant about such matters.

But, as you obviously believe you are far more intelligent than medical professionals who have a decade of education and decades of experience in their respective fields, within which they are board certified.

I'm thinking that you just crossed the line from con artist to full tilt stupidity.

Doctors have no more insight into what is miraculous than anyone else.

And you of course are far more educated, experienced, and intelligent than they ever could be.

What's the name of the whiskey you smoke?
Can it be found in pot shops, or is it just something you created to convince yourself that you are the most intelligent person on earth?

Do you want me to cite some studies.

Absolutely!
With links too.

It is well known that a positive outlook has a strong impact upon outcomes in cancer patients.

Pick them from 1990 through 2005.
After all, we wouldn't want to get a post dated experience set from my experience.
Context does matter.

It's not curious. Most of them lived in a time when Christianity was the dominant paradigm.
They didn't examine their beliefs in the same way they examined the focus of their scientific endeavours.

They apparently aren't up to your standard for scientific integrity then?

You keep repeating this. I don't know why.

Why indeed.
Well, you've made it clear that they're not reliable enough, apparently due to your extremely high standards... basedon what, I have no idea, but the bs meter is definitely pegged here.

Please expound.

What are you not understanding?

YHVH says that he has chosen Israel as his own people.

Israel's existence for the past several thousand years, the existence of the Jewish people, in spite of having been scattered throughout the world, and now their return to their ancestral lands...

Sounds like pretty incontrovertible evidence to me.

You obviously have a low opinion of your fellow man. Based on observable evidence, is man predominantly good or predominantly bad?

And?
The bible says that we are evil, and if left to our own devices, we will destroy ourselves.

Is society getting worse or better or just staying the same?

Growing increasingly worse.

You learned physics and mathematics. Have you applied the same principles of measurement and verification to your religious beliefs?
Or do you give those ideas a free pass?

Actually, I have.

In studying physics and math, and learning to understand what is entailed in doing them, I've learned to better understand who and what I believe, and why I believe Him.

 

[SteveB]

So, you've got to love Jesus in order for Jesus to keep his word and somehow let you know He's there for you. Because you Love Him in the first place, before you know He's there, which all this emotion flying around how do you know you've found the real thing, or it's just confirmation bias? Is there anything you can say that demonstrates you have found the real thing?

Or, far more likely, you simply lack the correct understanding of what he's saying.

 

[Whatsisface]

Or, far more likely, you simply lack the correct understanding of what he's saying.

Which doesn't answer the question, as usual. And you aren't saying what the correct understanding is, as usual.

 

[SteveB]

Which doesn't answer the question, as usual. And you aren't saying what the correct understanding is, as usual.

Since you have repeatedly made it clear that you don't want to be understood, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Tiburon]

Which is what.... exactly?
Had you actually done what Jesus said, he says

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

So, this "to no avail" bit tells me that you did not in fact do what Jesus said. You may indeed have done what you think he said, but were just the ideas of men.

We do after all read,
Matthew 15: 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”
This is why people miss it.
They think they are doing what YHVH says, but are in fact just following the instructions of people who don't actually know YHVH.
We who follow Jesus are and have learned that it's all too easy to get caught in this trap. Especially if we have had a religious background.
So, you have to decide what matters more to you. Your clear and obvious egocentricity, or the truth.

You tell us that if we want to know the truth we have to "do what Jesus said".
But when we tell you we have then you want specifics.
If there is a chance that we will miss the mark why don't you give us step by step instructions as to how we should approach God.
Otherwise you're just looking for excuses as to why we didn't get the same result as you.
Jesus said

Just trying to do something, not getting what you thought would happen, and then quitting doesn't mean that you are right. It just means that you are biased, and focusing on what YOU think.
This is exactly why you have failed.
We're to focus on the teachings of Jesus. Not religion.

More excuses.
You tell us you got what the Bible said as far as experiencing YHVH. You tell us that is how we will know that YHVH is real.
Then you accuse us of quitting because we didn't get what we thought would happen and you blame us.
If I'm not to expect what the Bible tells me I should expect then I'm at a loss.

And? You're more than welcome to prove YHVH doesn't exist.
The bible actually gives you the means by which to do so.

How should I go about doing that? What are the means detailed in the Bible?
What would you accept as proof?

Then stop talking and start doing what they say.
The fact that you don't, tells me that you just want to give excuses.

The fact that I don't do what they say is because, as I said, Longevity is no measure of validity.

I.e., you don't actually know because you don't read for the purpose of understanding, but so you can win arguments.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

1Jn 4:10 WEB In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

No I want you to be specific about "what the Bible says" because when I tell you that I have done what the Bible says you just wave it away with an "exactly what did you do"

Do you think that achieves demonstrating your own ignorance, or are you seeking to excuse yourself from knowing and learning the truth?

Joh 7:16-18 WEB 16 Jesus therefore answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Actually, the measurement is based on what Jesus said. This is exactly why it's so important to read the bible and pray regularly.

It's why we read in psalm 1, and Jeremiah 17 that those who trust in YHVH will be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, which bring forth the kind of fruit that is the result of knowing YHVH.

Well then! That's it! Your experience is the defining factor!
There can't possibly be any other view!

Yes my experience is the defining factor.
Just as yours is for you.

I recall in my algebra classes, and other advanced courses, seeing and indeed, experiencing this issue.
It was exactly why my professors would tell us that we needed to show our work. We couldn't just do it in our heads, and then write down the answers.

In writing out our work, we would show the processes that we are using, which will further show that we're paying attention, instead of just being lazy. In my classes, showing our work would give us the added benefit of our professors pointing out where we went wrong, if we didn't get the right result.

You're the one who is unwilling to "show your work" by detailing the processes you took, so it can be compared to the bible.

What "work". I thought the gift of salvation was by faith alone.
You didn't even do what the Bible says. You didn't come to him already believing that he was true.
I asked Jesus to forgive my sins, to be my saviour and to dwell within my heart.

So, what did you think was going to happen here?
Are you looking for special consideration, that I should just take your word for it, and then not ask any questions to gain a better understanding and perspective?

Yet you are. You keep telling me that your lack of experience is definitive proof that YHVH isn't real and knowable.

I didn't think anything was going to happen here.
I'm telling you that my lack of experience gives me no reason to believe that YHVH is real and knowable.
Short of that I have no way to verify his existence.

 

[Tiburon]

That's because you don't want to visit me.
These are items that would be viewable in a visit.
Which would be answered by visiting me.

It's a theoretical bug.

Yes. That is your claim.
A claim I view as being based on your not wanting to know, so you refuse to engage him on his terms.
Thankfully, your permission is not a requirement for me to live my life. Especially when you weren't even around to have a right to make the claim in the first place.
In fact, I find myself wondering why you should think that your opinion on this matters, 45 years after the fact.
Do you actually think that you have a valid basis for telling me that you are bothered by a question and life experience I had nearly 45 years ago?
Seems to me that this is tyrannical thinking at the least.

My claim is based upon your recounting of events.
I'm sure my opinion of the event doesn't matter to you in the slightest.

That's your opinion.
I typically wouldn't think to ask questions about things I was unaware of.
So, yes, throughout the 60's and first 3/4 of the 70's, I'd heard about God, Jesus, the bible.
I was done with religion in general. I was pretty much ready to go into the next phase of my life.
I was presented with something that I had not heard about before, so as I was done with talking to other people about it, I did what I had learned before--
Instead of listening to secondhand rumors, go directly to the source. Or, as we said back then-- go to the horse's mouth.
I had no previous experience with Jesus or God, and the religion I grew up with was a dead thing to me, it was pretty clear to me that if I mattered the way the gospel of Jesus says i did, God would answer.
If not, then i move on and live the life I wanted. Whatever that may have become.

You were done with religion but you weren't done with the idea of God.

?
So, because I lived among drug addicts, alcoholics, sexually promiscuous, and rock and roll lovers, if I follow your logic, I'd be a drug addicted alcoholic who screws around, listening to rock and roll music all day long.
Well. At least it can't be said that you're as bright as you believe yourself to be.

Missing the point once again.

Normal people maybe. I'd say that doctors are far too educated to be so flippant about such matters.
But, as you obviously believe you are far more intelligent than medical professionals who have a decade of education and decades of experience in their respective fields, within which they are board certified.

Education has nothing to do with it and I'm not claiming that they are flippant about such things.
I'm saying that if they are Christians in a community of Christians then "miracles" are not alien to their world view.
It wouldn't be that much of leap for them to see something as miraculous.
In reality we have no measure for discerning what is "miraculous".

Pick them from 1990 through 2005.
After all, we wouldn't want to get a post dated experience set from my experience.
Context does matter.

I'll get back to you

They apparently aren't up to your standard for scientific integrity then?

They aren't up to any modern standard of scientific integrity.
The application of experimental parameters and controls is much stricter.
As is the process of peer review.
Nothing to do with my standards.

Why indeed.
Well, you've made it clear that they're not reliable enough, apparently due to your extremely high standards... basedon what, I have no idea, but the bs meter is definitely pegged here.

Where have I claimed any standards at odds with the definition of science you keep repeating.

What are you not understanding?

YHVH says that he has chosen Israel as his own people.

Israel's existence for the past several thousand years, the existence of the Jewish people, in spite of having been scattered throughout the world, and now their return to their ancestral lands...

Sounds like pretty incontrovertible evidence to me.

You are mistaking correlation for causation.
The Hebrews said YHVH has chosen them as his own people.
A very natural attribute for a tribal God.
Their return to the homeland had already happened after the Babylonian exile.
The latest return to their homeland is the product of their belief in the Biblical claim.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

The bible says that we are evil, and if left to our own devices, we will destroy ourselves.
Growing increasingly worse.

Nothing genius there. People have been saying this for ever.
By what measure are things growing increasingly worse?

Actually, I have.

In studying physics and math, and learning to understand what is entailed in doing them, I've learned to better understand who and what I believe, and why I believe Him.

And why is that?

 

[SteveB]

You tell us that if we want to know the truth we have to "do what Jesus said".
But when we tell you we have then you want specifics.
If there is a chance that we will miss the mark why don't you give us step by step instructions as to how we should approach God.
Otherwise you're just looking for excuses as to why we didn't get the same result as you.
Jesus said


More excuses.
You tell us you got what the Bible said as far as experiencing YHVH. You tell us that is how we will know that YHVH is real.
Then you accuse us of quitting because we didn't get what we thought would happen and you blame us.
If I'm not to expect what the Bible tells me I should expect then I'm at a loss.


How should I go about doing that? What are the means detailed in the Bible?
What would you accept as proof?


The fact that I don't do what they say is because, as I said, Longevity is no measure of validity.


No I want you to be specific about "what the Bible says" because when I tell you that I have done what the Bible says you just wave it away with an "exactly what did you do"


Yes my experience is the defining factor.
Just as yours is for you.


What "work". I thought the gift of salvation was by faith alone.
You didn't even do what the Bible says. You didn't come to him already believing that he was true.
I asked Jesus to forgive my sins, to be my saviour and to dwell within my heart.


I didn't think anything was going to happen here.
I'm telling you that my lack of experience gives me no reason to believe that YHVH is real and knowable.
Short of that I have no way to verify his existence.

Sounds like you have everything all figured out, and no need for YHVH to show up to make himself known to you.

 

[SteveB]

It's a theoretical bug.

Sounds like you have everything all figured out.
Oh, that's it.... you're playing rhetorical games because you don't actually want to know the truth. Ok. That's all you had to say in the first place.

My claim is based upon your recounting of events.
I'm sure my opinion of the event doesn't matter to you in the slightest.

That's simply because it's not actually based on my recounting my experiences.
Rather, it's based on your beliefs and assumptions about my experiences.

I.e., if you lack the awareness, then no matter what, it's not possible to be true and real.

You were done with religion but you weren't done with the idea of God.

I learned a new word yesterday.
Sophomaniac.
Apparently it's a state of mind of someone who thinks more highly of their intelligence than is accurate.

This is what you keep coming across as.
You really just aren't as smart as you believe you are.

There's only one way to know if YHVH is real and knowable.

That's by coming to Jesus on his terms.

Missing the point once again.

Well, since you are obviously having a problem explaining your point, I'm not particularly concerned about this.

Education has nothing to do with it and I'm not claiming that they are flippant about such things.

Actually, you were quite clear that you have a very low opinion of their education, knowledge, experience and awareness of the issues associated with the nature of advanced metastatic cancer.

I'm saying that if they are Christians in a community of Christians then "miracles" are not alien to their world view.

Another example of sophomania.
I'm curious..
Do you think that assuming ideasnot in evidence actually supports your beliefs?
Because it just shows me that you're not as smart as you think you are.

It wouldn't be that much of leap for them to see something as miraculous.

If your unsupported assumptions were true.

In reality we have no measure for discerning what is "miraculous".

YOU have no measure for discerning what is miraculous.
This is the problem with your lack of knowledge, your lack of experience, your lack of understanding, and your lack of education.

I'll get back to you

Please do.

They aren't up to any modern standard of scientific integrity.

???‍
Which is exactly why they are taught in all the science texts, and classes, from elementary school up through graduate level college education.

Thank you for providing evidence that you are sophomania driven.

The application of experimental parameters and controls is much stricter.

Yet you're not actually able to describe that.

As is the process of peer review.
Nothing to do with my standards.

It's a curious thing how you use these words, but have absolutely nothing to back it up.

Where have I claimed any standards at odds with the definition of science you keep repeating.

?
The very fact that you have impugned the knowledge, experience, understanding and learning of medical doctors.....

Very sophomaniac.

You are mistaking correlation for causation.

I'm not the one who keeps saying that you know what you're talking about.

The Hebrews said YHVH has chosen them as his own people.

Nope. His claim on them predates their existence.

A very natural attribute for a tribal God.

Well! U-da-man and all awareness of all possible truth dwells with you!

Their return to the homeland had already happened after the Babylonian exile.
The latest return to their homeland is the product of their belief in the Biblical claim.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Hmm....
Well, it'd be far easier to take this seriously if other cultures had experienced so long an exile and been assimilated into other cultures for multiple centuries/generations.

Nothing genius there. People have been saying this for ever.

Forever, eh....
Tell me something.
How long is forever?

By what measure are things growing increasingly worse?

Human measures.
Unless of course you think that murder, rape, political corruption, increasing violence, robbery, theft, crime are all good things.

And why is that?

Why indeed.

Why would someone who has been trained in the sheet metal construction industry, and learned the mathematics, and practical knowledge required to do pattern development drafting to create 3d devices, and then take college courses which further develop a greater understanding of the world in which we live, come to understand what the bible describes by actually using the training I'd received to further learn and grow in knowledge and understanding of what biblical faith is?

Why would anyone actually want to learn, and gain a better picture of what life is about and how it works?

Seems to me that if you actually want the answer to your question, you're going to have to learn.

It's a pretty simple concept.

By using the tools or problem solving, learned in my profession as a union trained sheet metal construction worker, I applied myself to increase my learning in my math and physics classes in college.
The tools I developed for problem solving in those classes, I found I could take them, and apply them to learn the bible and what is required to know YHVH.

Over the course of the past several decades, I've found that YHVH is exactly whom he describes himself to be, and by learning to do what the bible says is necessary, I can actually know him.

 

[Tiburon]

That's simply because it's not actually based on my recounting my experiences.
Rather, it's based on your beliefs and assumptions about my experiences.

I.e., if you lack the awareness, then no matter what, it's not possible to be true and real.

It is based upon your recounting. Of course I interpret that based upon my experiences.
I can't experience your experience.

I learned a new word yesterday.
Sophomaniac.
Apparently it's a state of mind of someone who thinks more highly of their intelligence than is accurate.

This is what you keep coming across as.
You really just aren't as smart as you believe you are.

What's the word for those who keep accusing people of thinking they are smarter than they actually are?

There's only one way to know if YHVH is real and knowable.
That's by coming to Jesus on his terms.

And what are his terms?
Because for me it didn't work.

Well, since you are obviously having a problem explaining your point, I'm not particularly concerned about this.

Actually, you were quite clear that you have a very low opinion of their education, knowledge, experience and awareness of the issues associated with the nature of advanced metastatic cancer.

I've expressed no opinion of the education and experience of the doctors who treated you.
I'm pretty sure they didn't cover "miracles" in med school.

Another example of sophomania.
I'm curious..
Do you think that assuming ideas not in evidence actually supports your beliefs?
Because it just shows me that you're not as smart as you think you are.

What ideas? That the doctors who treated you are likely to be Christian or that miracles are part of that world view?

YOU have no measure for discerning what is miraculous.
This is the problem with your lack of knowledge, your lack of experience, your lack of understanding, and your lack of education.

Neither do you. What is your measure for discerning what is miraculous? The fact that in someone's opinion it was?

Which is exactly why they are taught in all the science texts, and classes, from elementary school up through graduate level college education.

Not in any textbook I had.

Thank you for providing evidence that you are sophomania driven.

You're loving that new word aren't you?
Does it make you feel like you know something?

Yet you're not actually able to describe that.
It's a curious thing how you use these words, but have absolutely nothing to back it up.

They didn't even have a formal peer review process back then.

The very fact that you have impugned the knowledge, experience, understanding and learning of medical doctors.....
Very sophomaniac.

I'm not impugned their knowledge, experience, understanding and learning.
I'm saying that none of those gives them the wherewithal to evaluate the "miracle" status of any particular event.

I'm not the one who keeps saying that you know what you're talking about.

Which has nothing to do with mistaking correlation for causation.

Nope. His claim on them predates their existence.

So the Hebrews being YHVH's chosen predates the Bible?
How do you know that?
Because the Bible says so?

Well! U-da-man and all awareness of all possible truth dwells with you!

Now you are impugned my knowledge, experience, understanding and learning.
It is obvious.
Why would a "universal" God have a chosen people?
That is a human idea meant to foster unity.

Hmm....
Well, it'd be far easier to take this seriously if other cultures had experienced so long an exile and been assimilated into other cultures for multiple centuries/generations.

Except they didn't assimilate did they?
That was one of the reasons for centuries of persecution.

Forever, eh....
Tell me something.
How long is forever?

Quite a long time I think.

Human measures.
Unless of course you think that murder, rape, political corruption, increasing violence, robbery, theft, crime are all good things.

Are you basing this claim of an apparent increase on actual statistics or just the parade of horrors on your favourite sensationalist news channel?

Why indeed.

Why would someone who has been trained in the sheet metal construction industry, and learned the mathematics, and practical knowledge required to do pattern development drafting to create 3d devices, and then take college courses which further develop a greater understanding of the world in which we live, come to understand what the bible describes by actually using the training I'd received to further learn and grow in knowledge and understanding of what biblical faith is?
Why would anyone actually want to learn, and gain a better picture of what life is about and how it works?

Seems to me that if you actually want the answer to your question, you're going to have to learn.

It's a pretty simple concept.

By using the tools or problem solving, learned in my profession as a union trained sheet metal construction worker, I applied myself to increase my learning in my math and physics classes in college.
The tools I developed for problem solving in those classes, I found I could take them, and apply them to learn the bible and what is required to know YHVH.

None of that tells me why I should believe in YHVH.
None of your learning is why you came to believe in the first place.
All you've done is built up your Biblical knowledge having already believed.
I may be wrong but you seem like a very "instruction manual" kind of guy.

Over the course of the past several decades, I've found that YHVH is exactly whom he describes himself to be, and by learning to do what the bible says is necessary, I can actually know him.

And who does YHVH describe himself to be?
Tell me in your own words who YHVH actually is and what, apart from simply believing, is necessary in order to know him?

 

[SteveB]

It is based upon your recounting. Of course I interpret that based upon my experiences.
I can't experience your experience.

There you have it.
Your biases, your preconceptions, your lack of knowledge, your lack of experience, your lack of awareness, your lack of understanding, your lack of belief.

What's the word for those who keep accusing people of thinking they are smarter than they actually are?

You have a dictionary?

And what are his terms?
Because for me it didn't work.

Then I'd say that you don't actually want to know.
Because he was quite clear about it.

God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

He said
Joh 6:35-40 WEB 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don’t believe. 37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Joh 8:31-36 WEB 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

come to him, believe him, don't quit, keep his teachings.

I've expressed no opinion of the education and experience of the doctors who treated you.
I'm pretty sure they didn't cover "miracles" in med school.

Have you ever attended medical school in the United states?
Because if not, then you're assuming, based solely on your own bias, preconceptions, lack of actual knowledge and awareness.
So. Yes in fact you have expressed your opinion on their education. "I'm pretty sure they didn't cover miracles in medical school."

What ideas? That the doctors who treated you are likely to be Christian or that miracles are part of that world view?

Sounds like assumptions to me.
Especially since you have never come to my doctor appointments and asked them.

Neither do you. What is your measure for discerning what is miraculous? The fact that in someone's opinion it was?

A medical professional's opinion, based on decades of medical practice, and the knowledge of how quickly, and how deadly melanoma cancer is and kills its patients.

Not in any textbook I had.

I'd say that it's a good thing that my professors took the time to teach my classmates and I the history of physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology, programming, etc. While they taught us the physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology, etc.
And to think, I attended state college and university.

You're loving that new word aren't you?
Does it make you feel like you know something?

It actually reminds me of how little I know, and shows me how much you think you know is the problem here.

They didn't even have a formal peer review process back then.

Yet they developed the foundation upon which our present scientific knowledge is based. I think it was Einstein who said-- we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.
So, as their work has been tested by those who came after, and corroborated by us, and continues to be developed, and indeed, discoveries are ongoing, based on their findings, I'm not bothered by it.
I am amused that you appear to be.

I'm not impugned their knowledge, experience, understanding and learning.
I'm saying that none of those gives them the wherewithal to evaluate the "miracle" status of any particular event.

There you have it. You've just impugned their knowledge, experience, understanding, and learning.
For someone who denies they're smarter than they actually are, you sure do a fantastic job of demonstrating that you believe yourself to be smarter than you actually are. Sophomaniac.

Which has nothing to do with mistaking correlation for causation.

Yet you continue to do so.

So the Hebrews being YHVH's chosen predates the Bible?

Yep. The first five books of the bible wasn't written until 400+ years after YHVH chose Abraham. And a good 42 years after YHVH introduced himself to Moses.

How do you know that?

Reading. It's a novel concept, I know. But it is extremely important to begin the process of learning to know the truth.

Because the Bible says so?

Yep!

Now you are impugned my knowledge, experience, understanding and learning.

Only if you impugned the knowledge, experience, understanding and learning of my oncologists and doctors. If you didn't, then I couldn't.

It is obvious.

What makes it obvious?

Why would a "universal" God have a chosen people?

Good question.
Why indeed?
Well, according to the book known as the bible, (you know, that one you think is a book of mythology and fiction) YHVH wanted a friend, and as their friendship grew through the years, YHVH expressed his desire to create a people who would be his witnesses to him throughout history, and would be able to make him known to the entire human race.
He does say--
Gen 18:17-19 WEB 17 Yahweh said, “Will I hide from Abraham what I do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Yahweh, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Yahweh may bring on Abraham that which he has spoken of him.”

That is a human idea meant to foster unity.

There you go again, assuming things that you don't actually know.

Except they didn't assimilate did they?
That was one of the reasons for centuries of persecution.

Just one. That however is a symptom, and not a cause.

There are several nations they were scattered to, and they actually tried assimilating. They were ostracized, isolated, and then persecuted.

The bible describes it as evidence that YHVH chose Abraham, and his descendants.

Quite a long time I think.

Did you do L'Hopital's in your calculus classes?

Are you basing this claim of an apparent increase on actual statistics or just the parade of horrors on your favourite sensationalist news channel?

Favourite sensationalist news channel?
?
Which channel would that be?

 

[SteveB]

None of that tells me why I should believe in YHVH.

That forever you mentioned.
You're going to die in several years. Upon your death, you will enter one place or another.
Apart from Jesus, you will enter that place known as hell.
There you will wait, in prison, as it were, for the day of judgment, when you will give an account for your life. Actions, inactions, words, thoughts, etc..
Jesus came to save you from experiencing that.
He came to give you everlasting life, to live in a paradise designed explicitly with your needs, and dreams in mind.

None of your learning is why you came to believe in the first place.

None, eh...
Well, since you clearly know everything, you keep telling yourself that.

Sophomaniac comes to mind here.

All you've done is built up your Biblical knowledge having already believed.
I may be wrong but you seem like a very "instruction manual" kind of guy.

And?
It's quite beneficial to actually pay attention to the instructions when building things.
It's allowed me to build fences, ornamental structures, repair vehicles, rebuild carburetors, computers, write code to solve complex problems in my former career, and numerous other things in life.
I'm curious why this should be a problem.
One of the most profound things I've learned over the past 5 decades is that this manual usage has facilitated for me... I can apply all, some or any of the skills, and aptitudes I've learned over the course of my life and career, and solve problems that I never could have, had I not learned accordingly.
It's actually quite cool. The level of intuitive connections between the various skills and training I've had over the decades is astonishing to me.
I think where I became aware of it was following my university education.
The physics department chair told my class one day that we'd come to a place where we'd see the connections almost intuitively, after we'd been at it for several years. It reminded me how that after I'd been a journeyman sheet metal worker for several years, I was seeing connections which were barely alluded to in my apprenticeship program.
So... yeah. I am indeed a big believer in the value of training and user manuals.

Ironically, we who follow Jesus refer to the bible as
Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

It's incredibly basic, but what I've learned over the course of the past 44+ years now is that God is not a micromanager.
He's a loving Father who seeks to help us learn to live in the highest capacity possible for us, and when we get stuck, he encourages us to reach beyond our stuckness.

And who does YHVH describe himself to be?

He's fully described in the bible. Engaging him on his terms increases the understanding, which makes the experience real.

Tell me in your own words who YHVH actually is and what, apart from simply believing, is necessary in order to know him?

Biblical faith is not a matter of intellectual assent.

It entails doing what Jesus said.
It's long been said that following Jesus is a verb-based life.

The activities that are godly, and biblical, are verbs.
They all end with the suffix, "-ing"

Read-ing
Learn-ing
Pray-ing
Believ-ing
Think-ing
Reason-ing
Be-ing
Serv-ing
Help-ing
Lov-ing
Giv-ing
Liv-ing
Hop-ing
Trust-ing

According to the bible, we do the ing stuff, and YHVH empowers us, and the impossible stuff, which will further enhance our lives to be beyond anything we could accomplish on our own, fulfilling us, bringing increased, and enhanced satisfaction and joy to our lives.
He said that he will never give up on us, or quit because we're too much of a pain in the derriere.
In fact, my experience has been that when other people give up on us he steps up his actions on our behalf because he knows what it's like to be abandoned and the heartache associated with it.

His expressly stated purpose and goal is to get us to be with Jesus upon our death, and keep us in his hands throughout our lives.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Of course you don't.
Because you aren't actually in this conversation.

OK

As I said, you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about because you're not actually in this conversation about an experience in my life from 1978.

Ah - this is more of your unproveable, subjective claims of supernatural experiences that you think is proof of something. Like someone who claims to have seen a ghost in 1978.

Got it.

Then you should stop talking about topics you have absolutely no clue about.

OK

Further demonstrating that you have become trapped in your own mind and aren't actually in this conversation.

OK

Well, when you return to reality, let me know.
Until then.
Au revoir.

Take care.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

I believe the Bible for many reasons. Fulfilled prophecies can be checked and verified using history or do you also not believe history ?

This is the Begging the Question (i.e Circular Arguement) logic fallacy. It is a well understood error in thinking that even CARM rejects as proof for Christ.

Here is the definition of this error from CARM:

Begging the Question Fallacy – Assuming the thing to be true that you are trying to prove. It is circular. (e.g. God exists because the Bible says so. The Bible is inspired. Therefore, we know that God exists.)

You cannot say The Bible is true because the prophecies were fulfilled in The Bible. You are saying that the prophecies and their fulfillment is in The Bible so The Bible is true.

Its nonsensical.

And you call this history? Fulfilled prophecy will be history the day you find a way to prove that Jesus actually did anything claimed in The Bible. And we have zero proof of Jesus until centuries after his death. So I do not know ho you'd prove that.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

This is the Begging the Question (i.e Circular Arguement) logic fallacy. It is a well understood error in thinking that even CARM rejects as proof for Christ.

Here is the definition of this error from CARM:

Begging the Question Fallacy – Assuming the thing to be true that you are trying to prove. It is circular. (e.g. God exists because the Bible says so. The Bible is inspired. Therefore, we know that God exists.)

You cannot say The Bible is true because the prophecies were fulfilled in The Bible. You are saying that the prophecies and their fulfillment is in The Bible so The Bible is true.

Its nonsensical.

And you call this history? Fulfilled prophecy will be history the day you find a way to prove that Jesus actually did anything claimed in The Bible. And we have zero proof of Jesus until centuries after his death. So I do not know ho you'd prove that.

Well there is physical proof of a world wide flood.. You call it begging the question I call it sharing truth.That’s odd there is evidence of Jesus all around you if you ignore that is your fault not Gods. Jesus changes lives and hearts everyday try opening your eyes.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Well there is physical proof of a world wide flood..

Can you link to it please? Because I know of no empirical evidence that proves a global flood.

You call it begging the question I call it sharing truth.

Changing the name does not make it rational.

Can you prove anything in The Bible happened?

That’s odd there is evidence of Jesus all around you if you ignore that is your fault not Gods. Jesus changes lives and hearts everyday try opening your eyes.

I have yet to see any evidence of Jesus. Can you show me how the things I see every day prove that Jesus rose from the dead 2,000 years ago?

Thank you. Your argument seems to be just 'I believe The Bible is true with no way to prove any of it.' And that is just not really compelling on an atheist forum.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Can you link to it please? Because I know of no empirical evidence that proves a global flood.

Changing the name does not make it rational.

Can you prove anything in The Bible happened?

I have yet to see any evidence of Jesus. Can you show me how the things I see every day prove that Jesus rose from the dead 2,000 years ago?

Thank you. Your argument seems to be just 'I believe The Bible is true with no way to prove any of it.' And that is just not really compelling on an atheist forum.

Your rebuttal is a well rehearsed denial while the proof is all around you. Your denial of truth does not make truth untrue it just means you are not capable of seeing the truth. Your master Satan has trained you well.

 

[Tiburon]

Then I'd say that you don't actually want to know.
Because he was quite clear about it.

God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

He said
Joh 6:35-40 WEB 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don’t believe. 37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Joh 8:31-36 WEB 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

come to him, believe him, don't quit, keep his teachings.

The Bible has shown itself to me to be false.

Have you ever attended medical school in the United states?
Because if not, then you're assuming, based solely on your own bias, preconceptions, lack of actual knowledge and awareness.
So. Yes in fact you have expressed your opinion on their education. "I'm pretty sure they didn't cover miracles in medical school."

Sounds like assumptions to me.
Especially since you have never come to my doctor appointments and asked them.

A medical professional's opinion, based on decades of medical practice, and the knowledge of how quickly, and how deadly melanoma cancer is and kills its patients.

I doubt that any reputable medical school in the world has "miracles" as part of it's syllabus.
It may have been the opinion of a medical professional but it wasn't a "medical" opinion.

I'd say that it's a good thing that my professors took the time to teach my classmates and I the history of physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology, programming, etc. While they taught us the physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology, etc.
And to think, I attended state college and university.

Does it enhance your ability to put the knowledge into practice?

Yet they developed the foundation upon which our present scientific knowledge is based. I think it was Einstein who said-- we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.
So, as their work has been tested by those who came after, and corroborated by us, and continues to be developed, and indeed, discoveries are ongoing, based on their findings, I'm not bothered by it.
I am amused that you appear to be.

There you have it. You've just impugned their knowledge, experience, understanding, and learning.

I'm not impugning their medical knowledge, experience, understanding, and learning.
But just as I wouldn't ask a mechanic to diagnose the reason my tomatoes are dying, neither would I ask an MD to differentiate between the extraordinary and the "miraculous".

For someone who denies they're smarter than they actually are, you sure do a fantastic job of demonstrating that you believe yourself to be smarter than you actually are. Sophomaniac.

If you say so.

Yep. The first five books of the bible wasn't written until 400+ years after YHVH chose Abraham. And a good 42 years after YHVH introduced himself to Moses.

We have no evidence that Abraham and Moses were even real people.
Never the less I'm sure the Bible stories were passed around orally centuries before they were assembled in written form

Only if you impugned the knowledge, experience, understanding and learning of my oncologists and doctors. If you didn't, then I couldn't.

What I'm impugning is there ability to make a judgement on what is or is not "miraculous" you are using an argument from authority fallacy.

Good question.
Why indeed?
Well, according to the book known as the bible, (you know, that one you think is a book of mythology and fiction) YHVH wanted a friend, and as their friendship grew through the years, YHVH expressed his desire to create a people who would be his witnesses to him throughout history, and would be able to make him known to the entire human race.
He does say--
Gen 18:17-19 WEB 17 Yahweh said, “Will I hide from Abraham what I do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Yahweh, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Yahweh may bring on Abraham that which he has spoken of him.”

None of that explains why YHVH needed a "special" people. Why couldn't he be friends with everyone? Why wasn't all of mankind witnesses to him.

There you go again, assuming things that you don't actually know.

I'm extrapolating from what has been given and comparing it to other religions.

Just one. That however is a symptom, and not a cause.
There are several nations they were scattered to, and they actually tried assimilating. They were ostracized, isolated, and then persecuted.
The bible describes it as evidence that YHVH chose Abraham, and his descendants.

If your talking about the Babylonian exile they did assimilate somewhat. Enough to adopt much of their mythology.
If your talking about Egypt that was apparently before YHVH showed his face.
After the fall of the second temple and dispersion of the Jewish people
they were persecuted because they didn't assimilate. That was a cause for persecution not a symptom. When you maintain yourself as 'other' than those around you you are going to get persecuted.

Favourite sensationalist news channel?
?
Which channel would that be?

Take your pick. Fox, CNN. Just about all of them.
It's more about ratings than providing a balanced coverage these days

 

[Tiburon]

That forever you mentioned.
You're going to die in several years. Upon your death, you will enter one place or another.
Apart from Jesus, you will enter that place known as hell.
There you will wait, in prison, as it were, for the day of judgment, when you will give an account for your life. Actions, inactions, words, thoughts, etc..
Jesus came to save you from experiencing that.
He came to give you everlasting life, to live in a paradise designed explicitly with your needs, and dreams in mind.

These are claims for which you can supply no support.
Just empty threats and promises.

None, eh...
Well, since you clearly know everything, you keep telling yourself that.
Sophomaniac comes to mind here.

That's what you keep telling us. You asked God if he was real and you got an answer.
Nothing to do with learning

And?
It's quite beneficial to actually pay attention to the instructions when building things.
It's allowed me to build fences, ornamental structures, repair vehicles, rebuild carburetors, computers, write code to solve complex problems in my former career, and numerous other things in life.
I'm curious why this should be a problem.
One of the most profound things I've learned over the past 5 decades is that this manual usage has facilitated for me... I can apply all, some or any of the skills, and aptitudes I've learned over the course of my life and career, and solve problems that I never could have, had I not learned accordingly.
It's actually quite cool. The level of intuitive connections between the various skills and training I've had over the decades is astonishing to me.
I think where I became aware of it was following my university education.
The physics department chair told my class one day that we'd come to a place where we'd see the connections almost intuitively, after we'd been at it for several years. It reminded me how that after I'd been a journeyman sheet metal worker for several years, I was seeing connections which were barely alluded to in my apprenticeship program.
So... yeah. I am indeed a big believer in the value of training and user manuals.

It points to a rigid, unquestioning, "inside the box" type of mindset.

Ironically, we who follow Jesus refer to the bible as
Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

Lol.

It's incredibly basic, but what I've learned over the course of the past 44+ years now is that God is not a micromanager.
He's a loving Father who seeks to help us learn to live in the highest capacity possible for us, and when we get stuck, he encourages us to reach beyond our stuckness.

He's fully described in the bible. Engaging him on his terms increases the understanding, which makes the experience real.

I'm sure he is but that doesn't give me your understanding of what the Bible says about him.
Hundreds of different denominations are a product of the vast range of understandings of how he's "fully described in the bible."

Biblical faith is not a matter of intellectual assent.

It may not be a matter of intellectual assent alone but surely it forms part of it.

It entails doing what Jesus said.
It's long been said that following Jesus is a verb-based life.

According to the bible, we do the ing stuff, and YHVH empowers us, and the impossible stuff, which will further enhance our lives to be beyond anything we could accomplish on our own, fulfilling us, bringing increased, and enhanced satisfaction and joy to our lives.
He said that he will never give up on us, or quit because we're too much of a pain in the derriere.
In fact, my experience has been that when other people give up on us he steps up his actions on our behalf because he knows what it's like to be abandoned and the heartache associated with it.

His expressly stated purpose and goal is to get us to be with Jesus upon our death, and keep us in his hands throughout our lives.

"According to the bible" means According to other people. Just as I don't blindly accept the word of other people in other matters so I don't blindly accept the word of other people in relation to God.