Jesus returns twice.

[CrowCross]

You still have made no effort to demonstrate from the context of 1 Thessalonians that your misinterpretation of it is correct. You don't need to read anything I posted to do that.

Since that is so let me say it again to you..."
Then why don't you believe what Paul wrote? Rather than quote something in context from 1 Thessalonians to try and justify your misinterpretation you have chosen to merely assert the correctness of the errors of babblers. That says it all.

Ryrie in his book Dispensationalsim, (c) Moody, makes a plea. In part he wrote, "Every Christian has a right to his convictions about Biblical truth, but as long as we are in earthly bodies none of us can be infallible," p 209. Read your Bible to find out what it says because Dispensationalism is not anything close to being a right reflection of what Scripture says according to it's God given perfect immediate context.

“These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but take courage, I have overcome the world."” (Joh 16:33, EMTV)"

Paugh said there would be a rapture... "caught up" latin translation. An event where Jesus comes in the clouds...NOT...riding a white horse.

Now, if you don't want to believe in this pre-trib event, then so be it.

 

[BJ Bear]

Paugh said there would be a rapture... "caught up" latin translation. An event where Jesus comes in the clouds...NOT...riding a white horse.

That is again confusing non vision language with vision language and ignoring the the context of each passage.

The context of Paul's writing of being caught up is in verse 13, “12. in order that you may walk decently toward those that are outside, and may have need of nothing. 13. Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sorrowful as those who have no hope.” (1Th 4:12-13, EMTV)

Jesus will bring those who died in the faith with Him on the last day. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.” (1Th 4:14, EMTV)

Those who are alive on earth don't have precedence over those who died in the faith. “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.” (1Th 4:15, EMTV)

Then the reason this is so is given, “16. Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:16-17, EMTV)

“So then comfort one another with these words.” (1Th 4:18, EMTV)

Now, if you don't want to believe in this pre-trib event, then so be it.

According to what Scripture says it is not a so-called pre-tribulation event and the Thessalonians knew it. “5. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, just as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.6. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, in that you received the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7. so that you became patterns to all those who believe in Macedonia and Achaia.” (1Th 1:5-7, EMTV)

 

[Bonnie]

Let me say it again to you.....I read what Paul wrote....not what BJ said Paul wrote.

What is the difference?

 

[CrowCross]

That is again confusing non vision language with vision language and ignoring the the context of each passage.

The context of Paul's writing of being caught up is in verse 13, “12. in order that you may walk decently toward those that are outside, and may have need of nothing. 13. Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sorrowful as those who have no hope.” (1Th 4:12-13, EMTV)

Jesus will bring those who died in the faith with Him on the last day. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.” (1Th 4:14, EMTV)

Those who are alive on earth don't have precedence over those who died in the faith. “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.” (1Th 4:15, EMTV)

Then the reason this is so is given, “16. Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:16-17, EMTV)

“So then comfort one another with these words.” (1Th 4:18, EMTV)

According to what Scripture says it is not a so-called pre-tribulation event and the Thessalonians knew it. “5. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, just as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.6. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, in that you received the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7. so that you became patterns to all those who believe in Macedonia and Achaia.” (1Th 1:5-7, EMTV)

1 Thes 4 alone speaks of or doesn't speak of the tribulation. It only speaks of the rapture and gives several events surrounding it.
The timing is developed from other verses.

 

[CrowCross]

What is the difference?

What did BJ say?

 

[BJ Bear]

1 Thes 4 alone speaks of or doesn't speak of the tribulation. It only speaks of the rapture and gives several events surrounding it.
The timing is developed from other verses.

Your lack of interaction with what 1 Thessalonians actually says is illustrative of the point that was made. Paul made the timing clear in 1 Thessalonians of when people will be caught up, "raptured."

A person has to ignore or deny the context of 1 Thessalonians in order to imagine a different timing through taking other verses out of context.

The other thing made clear through the words of Jesus, 1 Thessalonians, Revelation, and the rest of Scripture is that the faithful experience tribulation in this world. Even so, take heart He has overcome the world.

“These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but take courage, I have overcome the world."” (Joh 16:33, EMTV)

 

[BJ Bear]

What is the difference?

Since I quoted Paul in context it seems that a word game being played to avoid the point being made by Paul.

Further evidence of this can be found in posts #184 and #185 since no attempt was made to make an affirmative point from the immediate context that the timing of being caught up or "rapture" is different from what Paul actually wrote.

 

[CrowCross]

Your lack of interaction with what 1 Thessalonians actually says is illustrative of the point that was made. Paul made the timing clear in 1 Thessalonians of when people will be caught up, "raptured."

A person has to ignore or deny the context of 1 Thessalonians in order to imagine a different timing through taking other verses out of context.

The other thing made clear through the words of Jesus, 1 Thessalonians, Revelation, and the rest of Scripture is that the faithful experience tribulation in this world. Even so, take heart He has overcome the world.

“These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but take courage, I have overcome the world."” (Joh 16:33, EMTV)

Keep trying BJ. You need much more than that....mean while you're forcing a verse. Where's the horse?

 

[Nic]

Tell me how the four horse guys are comforting.

The green horse pays 17:1.

 

[Bonnie]

Keep trying BJ. You need much more than that....mean while you're forcing a verse. Where's the horse?

The "horse" from Revelation is symbolic, as are a most of the images in Revelation. NOT meant to be taken literally.

Revelation 19:

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast​

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

This passage isn't about Jesus coming again, but is symbolic of Jesus' power and glory, and how He conquered death and the devil by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross and by rising from the dead.

This passage is not about Jesus coming again to earth, to rule, prior to the Rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

The green horse pays 17:1.

....and???

 

[CrowCross]

The "horse" from Revelation is symbolic, as are a most of the images in Revelation. NOT meant to be taken literally. Also, some think the rider is an ersatz Christ, or the antiChrist:

Jesus didn't ascend on a symbolic horse either. The horse symbolism or not is enough to show the reader it is a different event.

(Rev. 6:2) Who is the rider on the white horse? Christ or the antichrist? | Evidence Unseen

www.evidenceunseen.com

I am inclined that the figure on the white horse is NOT Jesus Christ, in Revelation 6:

I would agree.

In context, the rider of the white horse is in with the other horsemen, who being death and destruction. This rider has a crown, representing power and dominion, and the bow and arrow represent what these leaders will do to conquer.

The interesting part is that there are no arrows mentioned.

The bow mighnt not even be a bow and arrow....the bow could be something different such as a ribbon or a contract.

In other parts of Revelation, Jesus has a sword, not a bow and arrow. So, I think this rider on the white horse represents false religions or governments that promote such, that set out to conquer those on earth, to turn them from the truth of the true Jesus Christ of the Bible.

I agree.

 

[Bonnie]

Jesus didn't ascend on a symbolic horse either. The horse symbolism or not is enough to show the reader it is a different event.


I would agree.


The interesting part is that there are no arrows mentioned.

The bow mighnt not even be a bow and arrow....the bow could be something different such as a ribbon or a contract.

I agree.

I redid my last post, discussing Revelation 19 instead. Please be so kind as to read it.

 

[CrowCross]

The "horse" from Revelation is symbolic, as are a most of the images in Revelation. NOT meant to be taken literally.

Revelation 19:



This passage isn't about Jesus coming again, but is symbolic of Jesus' power and glory, and how He conquered death and the devil by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross and by rising from the dead.

This passage is not about Jesus coming again to earth, to rule, prior to the Rapture.

You partially have it right...as the rapture has already occurred.

Jesus is coming to earth to rule..."From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,"

 

[BJ Bear]

Keep trying BJ. You need much more than that....mean while you're forcing a verse.

That's an amusing response. Pray tell which verse is being forced?

Where's the horse?

Is that like, "Who is on first?" Are you now telling us that you are imagining a horse into 1 Thessalonians? There is no horse mentioned in 1 Thessalonians.

Or could it be that your question is an indirect way of asserting that your confusion of non visión language with vision language is a correct method of interpretation when you imagine it to be?

So for the record and to be clear, there is no horse in 1 Thessalonians and there is no rapture mentioned in Revelation. You have been taught a scripturally ignorant interpretation of Scripture in this regard.

 

[CrowCross]

That's an amusing response. Pray tell which verse is being forced?

Is that like, "Who is on first?" Are you now telling us that you are imagining a horse into 1 Thessalonians? There is no horse mentioned in 1 Thessalonians.

Or could it be that your question is an indirect way of asserting that your confusion of non visión language with vision language is a correct method of interpretation when you imagine it to be?

So for the record and to be clear, there is no horse in 1 Thessalonians and there is no rapture mentioned in Revelation. You have been taught a scripturally ignorant interpretation of Scripture in this regard.

Some believe "Come up hither" represents the rapture.

But, the lack of a horse at the ascension..which Christ returns in like manner...is still a hurdle you haven't gotten over yet.

 

[BJ Bear]

Some believe "Come up hither" represents the rapture.

Since you didn't supply a verse I will start with Rev 11:12 since it is a second person plural. The context clearly refers to the two prophets.

“6. These men have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls during the days of their prophecy; and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they wish.7. And when they finish their testimony, the beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them. 8. And their dead bodies will lie on the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9. Then some of the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations shall see their dead bodies for three-and-a-half days, and they will not allow their bodies to be put into a tomb. 10. And those who dwell on the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and give gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11. Now after the three-and-a-half days, the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who were watching them. 12. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.” (Rev 11:6-12, EMTV)

But, the lack of a horse at the ascension..which Christ returns in like manner...is still a hurdle you haven't gotten over yet.

The hurdle you refer to only exists in your imagination since you are the one trying to refer or equate the horse passage with the ascension and return of Christ to judge the living and the dead.

 

[CrowCross]

Since you didn't supply a verse I will start with Rev 11:12 since it is a second person plural. The context clearly refers to the two prophetss

verse snip

The hurdle you refer to only exists in your imagination since you are the one trying to refer or equate the horse passage with the ascension and return of Christ to judge the living and the dead.

No, what does the rider of the white horse, Jesus, do when He gets to earth?

Where is the white horse in the ascension? Until you address that question....you have to admitt the hurdle stands in your way or you've found a way to remove the hurdle.

 

[BJ Bear]

No, what does the rider of the white horse, Jesus, do when He gets to earth?

If you are referring to the white horse of Rev 19 then it is in heaven not on earth. “And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.” (Rev 19:11, EMTV)

Where is the white horse in the ascension? Until you address that question....you have to admitt the hurdle stands in your way or you've found a way to remove the hurdle.

The hurdle remains in your imagination since according to the vision John saw a white horse in heaven not a white horse on earth.

 

[CrowCross]

If you are referring to the white horse of Rev 19 then it is in heaven not on earth. “And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.” (Rev 19:11, EMTV)

The hurdle remains in your imagination since according to the vision John saw a white horse in heaven not a white horse on earth.

Finish the verse...

15 And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,

Where are the nations??? In Heaven?