Jesus returns twice.

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Finish the verse...

15 And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,

Where are the nations??? In Heaven?
That reply is only a further demonstration of an imaginative interpretation since nowhere in that pericope does it say that the horse or Christ descends to earth or descended to earth.

Is it really your claim that Jesus takes a physical sword to a nation and strikes it down one person at a time before going on to the next person in the next set of persons in the next nation?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
That reply is only a further demonstration of an imaginative interpretation since nowhere in that pericope does it say that the horse or Christ descends to earth or descended to earth.
I suppose Jesus is on a Merry-Go-Round.

NEXT
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I suppose Jesus is on a Merry-Go-Round.

NEXT
That is just more imaginative interpretation on your part which is based on prior imaginative interpretation on your part. Obviously, the passage doesn't state or imply that a vision of heaven with a horse in it means that, "Jesus is on a Merry-Go-Round."
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You partially have it right...as the rapture has already occurred.

No, it hasn't.
Jesus is coming to earth to rule..."From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,"
This is not about ruling from the earth, but is symbolic of Jesus judging everyone on earth when He comes again. But we who are in Christ Jesus our Lord will not be judged, but have passed from death to life.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
This is not about ruling from the earth, but is symbolic of Jesus judging everyone on earth when He comes again. But we who are in Christ Jesus our Lord will not be judged, but have passed from death to life.
Symbolic???

Thy kingdom will not come?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Then explain them.

That sounds like a cop out answer.
It may seem like a cop out to you but you really are reading a different Bible. The difference we're seeing with regard to Revelation is just the tip of the iceberg.

When I was a newbie the Lutherans gave me two good pieces of advice. Because I didn't know what was canonical or one group or denomination from another I was reading, listening, and attending all kinds of different stuff.

My questions usually began with, You know, I read..." or, "You know, I heard..." One day a Lutheran pastor took me aside and said, "It isn't what the guy on the radio says it is, and it isn't what I say it is." Then for emphasis he poked me in the belly a couple of times and then told me, "And it isn't what you say it is. I want you to go home, read the Bible, and then come back and tell me what it says."

That bit of advice started clearing up some things right away because I started comparing what I was reading and hearing to what Scripture actually says.

The second bit of advice came a little bit further down the road from a different pastor. It was that you can't know what Scripture means until you know what it says. So in essence it was apply the same measure as above to my understanding of Scripture. If my understanding of a section of Scripture matched what it says then great. But if it didn't then it was time to read that section of Scripture over and over until my understanding matched what Scripture says. I hope you will do the same.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
It may seem like a cop out to you but you really are reading a different Bible. The difference we're seeing with regard to Revelation is just the tip of the iceberg.

When I was a newbie the Lutherans gave me two good pieces of advice. Because I didn't know what was canonical or one group or denomination from another I was reading, listening, and attending all kinds of different stuff.

My questions usually began with, You know, I read..." or, "You know, I heard..." One day a Lutheran pastor took me aside and said, "It isn't what the guy on the radio says it is, and it isn't what I say it is." Then for emphasis he poked me in the belly a couple of times and then told me, "And it isn't what you say it is. I want you to go home, read the Bible, and then come back and tell me what it says."

That bit of advice started clearing up some things right away because I started comparing what I was reading and hearing to what Scripture actually says.

The second bit of advice came a little bit further down the road from a different pastor. It was that you can't know what Scripture means until you know what it says. So in essence it was apply the same measure as above to my understanding of Scripture. If my understanding of a section of Scripture matched what it says then great. But if it didn't then it was time to read that section of Scripture over and over until my understanding matched what Scripture says. I hope you will do the same.
Dude, sorry, but I see no white horse at the ascension.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Why do you feel the need to read a white horse into the ascension?
Because the angels (men in white) says Jesus will return the same way He left.

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

Rev 19:11 and onward describes a return of Christ...on a white horse.

The rapture event mentioned in 1 Thes 4 says.....After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Acts 1 :9 tells us...After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

The rapture and ascention have clouds...and no white horse.

Jesus returns twice. If you don't believe that, it's OK. Salvation is not dependent on getting the rapture/return event right.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Because the angels (men in white) says Jesus will return the same way He left.

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

Rev 19:11 and onward describes a return of Christ...on a white horse.

The rapture event mentioned in 1 Thes 4 says.....After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Acts 1 :9 tells us...After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

The rapture and ascention have clouds...and no white horse.

Jesus returns twice. If you don't believe that, it's OK. Salvation is not dependent on getting the rapture/return event right.
Where does it say Jesus returns to earth in 19:11? Answer: It does not say that Jesus returns to earth in Rev 19:11.

There is often a difference between what Scripture says and a person's interpretation of what Scripture says.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Where does it say Jesus returns to earth in 19:11? Answer: It does not say that Jesus returns to earth in Rev 19:11.

There is often a difference between what Scripture says and a person's interpretation of what Scripture says.
14 The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15 And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter

That sounds like a come down to earth event. IMO

Zech 14:3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.

I'm no biblical scholor, but as I said it sounds like there are two commings of Christ Jesus.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
14 The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15 And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter

That sounds like a come down to earth event. IMO

Zech 14:3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.

I'm no biblical scholor, but as I said it sounds like there are two commings of Christ Jesus.
It took a while but I finally found a document by a Dispensationalist that sought to explain how to interpret prophecy. I found it in Scofield's Bible Correspondence School, Volume I, p. 46. It says in part, "Here we reach the ground of absolute literalness*. Figures are often found in the prophecies, but the figure invariably has a literal fulfillment."
* emphasis original

If you don't accept his method of interpretation that's fine, but using his words the Dispensational doctrine of Israel and the church is false (This isn't to say that what Darby and followers say they reject in this regard is true.), as are some other doctrines unique to Dispensationalism.

For example, Scofield wrote that Israel is always Israel. Ok, Israel is always Israel and our infallible interpreter in Galatians 6 says the Israel of God are those of the household of faith. Since that is the case their distinction between Israel and the church and their "great parenthesis" can only stand if they read a particular meaning of Israel into the text. That can only be done on the basis of their speculation.

Looking at the passages you cited above, "from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword," is a figure of speech. It's literal fulfillment is not Jesus with a metal sword in His mouth. He isn't going to go around wagging his head side to side to strike down the nation's one at a time. It is consistent to understand that figure and the "breath of His mouth" (Isaiah 11:4, 2Th 2:8) with the word of God. Fwiw, the figure of the white horse also doesn't find it's literal fulfillment in a white horse.

The figures of speech in the beginning of Zechariah 14 don't indicate a second coming because they echo the exodus and it refers to the Lord coming with the saints.

The key to understanding the Tanakh or OT is Jesus. Jesus told the unbelievers, “You search the Scriptures, for you think in them you have everlasting life. And they are the ones witnessing concerning Me.” (Joh 5:39, LITV)

Jesus told the disciples, “26. Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into His glory? 27. And beginning from Moses, and from all the prophets, He explained to them the things about Himself in all the Scriptures...
must be fulfilled all the things having been written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, concerning Me. 45Then He opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures, 46and said to them, So it is written, and so the Christ must suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day. 47And repentance and remission of sins must be preached on His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48And you are witnesses of these things."
(Luk 24:26-27...44-48, LITV)

And Paul wrote, “For as many promises as are of God, in Him they are yes, and in Him are Amen, for glory to God through us.” (2Cor 1:20, LITV)

Praise the Lord!
 
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