Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe……

Carbon

Well-known member
Can faith be an arbitrary act of the will, can a man ever believe or disbelieve because he chooses to do so?

It seems to be common to speak of beliefs as voluntary convictions. But isn’t faith always the involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it?

Why is the same gospel the power unto salvation for some, for others a savor of death unto death?
is it not because the unregenerate heart is morally evil and decidedly hostile to God and to Christ?
Listen to what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews of His day.
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

Yet faith is the most important work which is demanded of men. Listen to what Jesus gave for an answer to the Jews when that asked, “what must we do, that we may do the works of God?”

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29.
So wouldn’t it make sense that God gives to His, what He requires of them?

He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration.

Thoughts?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Then we shall not turn back from you;
give us life, and we will call upon your name!
Restore us, O LORD God of hosts!
Let your face shine, that we may be saved! Psalm 80:18-19

Restore us to yourself, O LORD, that we may be restored! Lam 5:21

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” Acts 11:18

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Can faith be an arbitrary act of the will, can a man ever believe or disbelieve because he chooses to do so?

It seems to be common to speak of beliefs as voluntary convictions. But isn’t faith always the involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it?

Why is the same gospel the power unto salvation for some, for others a savor of death unto death?
is it not because the unregenerate heart is morally evil and decidedly hostile to God and to Christ?
Listen to what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews of His day.
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

Yet faith is the most important work which is demanded of men. Listen to what Jesus gave for an answer to the Jews when that asked, “what must we do, that we may do the works of God?”

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29.
So wouldn’t it make sense that God gives to His, what He requires of them?

He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration.

Thoughts?
There is a use of the Greek word translated "believe" which is "to entrust yourself to."
That is how you get saved, you entrust yourself to Jesus.
Believe and you will be saved. A command and a promise
Calvinist read it to say "God will give you faith and then save you"
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
There is a use of the Greek word translated "believe" which is "to entrust yourself to."
That is how you get saved, you entrust yourself to Jesus.
Believe and you will be saved. A command and a promise
Calvinist read it to say "God will give you faith and then save you"

No, the BIBLE (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7) says it's a gift from God.
It's a pity you refuse to believe the Bible.
 

MMDAN

Active member
John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work" which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works." Faith is also not just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to be saved by works.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work" which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works." Faith is also not just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to be saved by works.
You are right. That has been explained to Calvinists in these threads for years. But they will pretend that they cannot see what you are saying. Don't be too frustrated when they pretend not to understand.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
So you just denied that this faith is a gift from God.
Now you're claiming it's generated from within you.
No. I explained it, two aspects of faith.
You know what I said, why pretend?
faith is not generated. No one here ever says that, It is just one of your dodges to avoid what people actually state
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No. I explained it, two aspects of faith.

Yes, and you are wrong.

You know what I said, why pretend?

<sigh>
Please lose the insulting false accusations that I'm "pretending" anything.

faith is not generated.

So how does it come to be?

No one here ever says that, It is just one of your dodges to avoid what people actually state

More insults by you, huh?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
No, the BIBLE (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7) says it's a gift from God.
It's a pity you refuse to believe the Bible.
Eph 2:8 Faith is not the object of "and this not of yourselves"; the salvation that is " by grace...through faith" is that "which is not of yourselves" and "not by works lest any man should boast". Grace and faith are the means of God's choosing to bring about his salvation. Salvation is the subject in question! Salvation is graciously given through faith.

Phil1:29 Granted means to give favor freely. The question then is what is given. Neither of the things " given", however are objective things, but rather refer to circumstantial settings to do what they are doing at the time, namely, believing and suffering. Paul is not saying that faith and suffering are given, but that the believing and suffering that they are actively doing is an gracious favor being given from God!

Romans 12:3 "the πιστις, faith, here used, means the Christian religion; and the measure, the degree of knowledge and experience which each had received in it, and the power this gave him of being useful in the Church of God. See Romans 12:6." (Clarke)
Chapter 12 is the commencement of the practical or application side of Paul's message to the Romans. Paul begins to talk about what we do with our gifts of ministration of our faith, and how we do it. The measure of faith given is directly related with the measure or scope of giftedness that he chooses for each of us to exercise within the body. Each of us has a role or calling, and each are given the abilities to carry this out. Our faith or belief in these gifts and callings to do these things is varied and variable according to his purposes for us at any given time. This is not the concrete faith of believing in Christ for salvation, but of living the life of faith in an ever dynamic way according to a specific and individually unique purpose and plan of God. I think of Esther and Mordicai and the latter's edict to Esther that maybe "it was for such a time as this" that God has placed you as Queen. The measure of faith needed to go in before Xerxes unannounced is something that is unique, and God gives us the strength, more or less in measure, to trust him in any circumstance to which he has called us.

2 Pet 1:1 "A faith as precious as ours" is referencing the truths that have been taught to us, passed down to all of us.

By this word the author gives it to be understood, that the faith of those to whom he writes, has the same worth as that of those whom he designates by ἡμῖν; both have received one and the same faith (as to its objective contents) (Brückner, Besser, Wiesinger) (Meyer)


Like precious faith with us.—Not that all had an equal amount of faith, which would scarcely be possible; nor that their faith gave all an equal right to salvation, which the Greek could scarcely mean; but that all believed the same precious mysteries. (Comp. 1Peter 1:7.) (Ellicott)

1 Cor 4:7 I think that to take the viewpoint you have is to violate the admonition in verse 6, namely, “Do not go beyond what is written.”. Given the context, this has nothing to do with faith. We have to ask to what is Paul referring in context. These Corinthians were boastful: about whom they were followers of, ie, Paul, Apollos, Cephas or Christ, and about which of these were better than the others. They thought that they were better than those who followed someone different, and that made them better. Some commentators suggest that the followers of Apollos thought that his superior teaching made his followers more advanced that even Paul, whose preaching and teaching had been very elementary and limited in scope, being focused only on "Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Cor 2:2). Paul's simple message is what it is always: all that they have gained through the gospel is by God graciously giving it to them. The question of faith, of trusting what they have heard, is a) not strictly in focus here, and b) trust is only something I can give to someone/something else, it is not given to me by God to give back to God at least not in the way you mean.


Doug
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Eph 2:8 Faith is not the object of "and this not of yourselves"; the salvation that is " by grace...through faith" is that "which is not of yourselves" and "not by works lest any man should boast". Grace and faith are the means of God's choosing to bring about his salvation. Salvation is the subject in question! Salvation is graciously given through faith.

Phil1:29 Granted means to give favor freely. The question then is what is given. Neither of the things " given", however are objective things, but rather refer to circumstantial settings to do what they are doing at the time, namely, believing and suffering. Paul is not saying that faith and suffering are given, but that the believing and suffering that they are actively doing is an gracious favor being given from God!

Romans 12:3 "the πιστις, faith, here used, means the Christian religion; and the measure, the degree of knowledge and experience which each had received in it, and the power this gave him of being useful in the Church of God. See Romans 12:6." (Clarke)
Chapter 12 is the commencement of the practical or application side of Paul's message to the Romans. Paul begins to talk about what we do with our gifts of ministration of our faith, and how we do it. The measure of faith given is directly related with the measure or scope of giftedness that he chooses for each of us to exercise within the body. Each of us has a role or calling, and each are given the abilities to carry this out. Our faith or belief in these gifts and callings to do these things is varied and variable according to his purposes for us at any given time. This is not the concrete faith of believing in Christ for salvation, but of living the life of faith in an ever dynamic way according to a specific and individually unique purpose and plan of God. I think of Esther and Mordicai and the latter's edict to Esther that maybe "it was for such a time as this" that God has placed you as Queen. The measure of faith needed to go in before Xerxes unannounced is something that is unique, and God gives us the strength, more or less in measure, to trust him in any circumstance to which he has called us.

2 Pet 1:1 "A faith as precious as ours" is referencing the truths that have been taught to us, passed down to all of us.

By this word the author gives it to be understood, that the faith of those to whom he writes, has the same worth as that of those whom he designates by ἡμῖν; both have received one and the same faith (as to its objective contents) (Brückner, Besser, Wiesinger) (Meyer)


Like precious faith with us.—Not that all had an equal amount of faith, which would scarcely be possible; nor that their faith gave all an equal right to salvation, which the Greek could scarcely mean; but that all believed the same precious mysteries. (Comp. 1Peter 1:7.) (Ellicott)

1 Cor 4:7 I think that to take the viewpoint you have is to violate the admonition in verse 6, namely, “Do not go beyond what is written.”. Given the context, this has nothing to do with faith. We have to ask to what is Paul referring in context. These Corinthians were boastful: about whom they were followers of, ie, Paul, Apollos, Cephas or Christ, and about which of these were better than the others. They thought that they were better than those who followed someone different, and that made them better. Some commentators suggest that the followers of Apollos thought that his superior teaching made his followers more advanced that even Paul, whose preaching and teaching had been very elementary and limited in scope, being focused only on "Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Cor 2:2). Paul's simple message is what it is always: all that they have gained through the gospel is by God graciously giving it to them. The question of faith, of trusting what they have heard, is a) not strictly in focus here, and b) trust is only something I can give to someone/something else, it is not given to me by God to give back to God at least not in the way you mean.


Doug
the phrase "not of works lest any man should boast" is a clue. It clarifies what the gift is.
When the Bible speaks of works, it refers to people who think they can earn salvation by their own effort.
But this verse is saying that salvation is not of works, instead salvation is a gift
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Yes, and you are wrong.



<sigh>
Please lose the insulting false accusations that I'm "pretending" anything.



So how does it come to be?



More insults by you, huh?
In all your dodging and insults you miss the point of the post. Faith is not generated.
Faith is either a gift from God, or it is an action to entrust yourself to God.
Neither of those is generated
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Can faith be an arbitrary act of the will, can a man ever believe or disbelieve because he chooses to do so?

It seems to be common to speak of beliefs as voluntary convictions. But isn’t faith always the involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it?

Why is the same gospel the power unto salvation for some, for others a savor of death unto death?
is it not because the unregenerate heart is morally evil and decidedly hostile to God and to Christ?
Listen to what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews of His day.
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

Yet faith is the most important work which is demanded of men. Listen to what Jesus gave for an answer to the Jews when that asked, “what must we do, that we may do the works of God?”

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29.
So wouldn’t it make sense that God gives to His, what He requires of them?

He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration.

Thoughts?
Wow, my brother very insightful, and lucid! If I may add something, Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). Meaning our regeneration of the heart and mind to believe is God's doing through the Holy Spirit by the hearing of the Gospel. But people think, it's a decision that makes God's work effectual. Which couldn't be further from the truth. We do not make the Cross or God's work effectual by our activity! On the contrary the Cross is effectual and finished in the person and work of Christ who came to save those whom the Father gave to him to save.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. So here, we read that God's people (his sheep), hear his voice (Law & Gospel), and Christ knows them, and they follow him (Faith/Trust/Wisdom/Love). And all of this is his doing, not ours! Even while we were hostile enemies of God (Romans 4). We believe because God has opened our hearts and minds to understand the truth and believe!

But some mistaken this regeneration as to being placed in a position to decide to make God's work effectual by it. So Faith becomes the root rather than the fruit of our Salvation. To locate your redemption in your response rather than in the Gospel itself, it becomes another gospel.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Wow, my brother very insightful, and lucid! If I may add something, Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). Meaning our regeneration of the heart and mind to believe is God's doing through the Holy Spirit by the hearing of the Gospel. But people think, it's a decision that makes God's work effectual. Which couldn't be further from the truth. We do not make the Cross or God's work effectual by our activity! On the contrary the Cross is effectual and finished in the person and work of Christ who came to save those whom the Father gave to him to save.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. So here, we read that God's people (his sheep), hear his voice (Law & Gospel), and Christ knows them, and they follow him (Faith/Trust/Wisdom/Love). And all of this is his doing, not ours! Even while we were hostile enemies of God (Romans 4). We believe because God has opened our hearts and minds to understand the truth and believe!

But some mistaken this regeneration as to being placed in a position to decide to make God's work effectual by it. So Faith becomes the root rather than the fruit of our Salvation. To locate your redemption in your response rather than in the Gospel itself, it becomes another gospel.
If salvation was effectual at the cross, then everyone who was going to believe was saved at the cross, most before they were born. And that without faith,
 
Top