Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe……

Reformedguy

Well-known member
the phrase "not of works lest any man should boast" is a clue. It clarifies what the gift is.
When the Bible speaks of works, it refers to people who think they can earn salvation by their own effort.
But this verse is saying that salvation is not of works, instead salvation is a gift
And my mustering enough faith on their own?

Salvation is the gift. So is the means that brings it about.

If faith is not a gift of God then what is it?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
If salvation was effectual at the cross, then everyone who was going to believe was saved at the cross, most before they were born. And that without faith,
You're conflating decrees(which happen outside of time) with justification, sanctification(which happens in time). The elect are saved, are being saved, and will be saved because salvation is monergistic.

Remember that Abraham was also saved, yet the atonement had not been finished.

This is what distinguishes Calvinists from non Calvinists. We don't believe that a decision, pleading, asking, etc will save you. This work has already been done(decreed) before the foundation of the world. This does not negate the need for faith. This is why the gospel is good news to me.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Can faith be an arbitrary act of the will, can a man ever believe or disbelieve because he chooses to do so?

It seems to be common to speak of beliefs as voluntary convictions. But isn’t faith always the involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it?

Why is the same gospel the power unto salvation for some, for others a savor of death unto death?
is it not because the unregenerate heart is morally evil and decidedly hostile to God and to Christ?
Listen to what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews of His day.
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

Yet faith is the most important work which is demanded of men. Listen to what Jesus gave for an answer to the Jews when that asked, “what must we do, that we may do the works of God?”

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29.
So wouldn’t it make sense that God gives to His, what He requires of them?

He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration.

Thoughts?

What does the word "you" mean in what you quoted?

“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

The Work of God is the means by which "YOU" are to respond. If God hadn't put forth the effort to provided something to "believe in"... Then YOU wouldn't have been able to believe.

You're wanting to add an extra condition.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are talking about Calvinism, we are talking about the grammatical structure of the verse.

According to "the grammatical structure of the verse", the ONLY thing that the "gift" could be is the entirety of "are saved by grace through faith". The gift CANNOT be "saved" to the exclusion of grace and faith since "saved" is a masculine participle, and "gift" is NEUTER.

You can't just write off a correct argument as being "Calvinism", simply because you don't like the conclusion.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You're conflating decrees(which happen outside of time) with justification, sanctification(which happens in time). The elect are saved, are being saved, and will be saved because salvation is monergistic.

Remember that Abraham was also saved, yet the atonement had not been finished.

This is what distinguishes Calvinists from non Calvinists. We don't believe that a decision, pleading, asking, etc will save you. This work has already been done(decreed) before the foundation of the world. This does not negate the need for faith. This is why the gospel is good news to me.
Abraham was saved because of His faith. Faith is counted as righteousness.
But I do admit it is not completely clear to me how His death on the cross reaches both directions.
What I do know is that before Christ resurrected, no one was indwelt.
That starts at pentecost and changes the dynamic
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Abraham was saved because of His faith. Faith is counted as righteousness.
But I do admit it is not completely clear to me how His death on the cross reaches both directions.
What I do know is that before Christ resurrected, no one was indwelt.
That starts at pentecost and changes the dynamic
What??

The reason you don't understand is because you have a Contradiction in your Paradigm. You are just two moves away from being Checkmated...
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
According to "the grammatical structure of the verse", the ONLY thing that the "gift" could be is the entirety of "are saved by grace through faith". The gift CANNOT be "saved" to the exclusion of grace and faith since "saved" is a masculine participle, and "gift" is NEUTER.

You can't just write off a correct argument as being "Calvinism", simply because you don't like the conclusion.
You are not incorporating the last part of the thought "not of works lest any man should boast"
Untill you address which part a person could boast about, you do not have a clear understanding of the passage
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are not incorporating the last part of the thought "not of works lest any man should boast"
Untill you address which part a person could boast about, you do not have a clear understanding of the passage

<Chuckle>
My understand of the passage about 100x better than yours, seth.
I can read it in Greek.
And all you do is MISREPRESENT the Greek.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Sure. Make accusations
Never support anything
Avoid back and forth discussion
That does not work for me.
The Gospels can fit well at the end of the Old Testament because they are mostly about Jesus keeping the Old Covenant. You are like Nicodemus, and are THE teacher of CARM; but do not know the Old Covenant concept of being Born Again?? Jesus taught Nicodemus about 'his' personal need of Regeneration 'before' Pentecost...

Nicodemus must be Born Again. King David must be Born Again. Moses must be Born Again. Adam was Born Again...

Checkmate...

Now; back to ignoring you. This was for people like @eternomade and the Lurkers...
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
The Gospels can fit well at the end of the Old Testament because they are mostly about Jesus keeping the Old Covenant. You are like Nicodemus, and are THE teacher of CARM; but do not know the Old Covenant concept of being Born Again?? Jesus taught Nicodemus about 'his' personal need of Regeneration 'before' Pentecost...

Nicodemus must be Born Again. King David must be Born Again. Moses must be Born Again. Adam was Born Again...

Checkmate...

Now; back to ignoring you. This was for people like @eternomade and the Lurkers...
Ok. show where Moses was born again.
Or show where anyone in the OT was born again.
If you are going to promote something, shouldn't you be able to show scriture?
 
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