Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe……

Reformedguy

Well-known member
the phrase "not of works lest any man should boast" is a clue. It clarifies what the gift is.
When the Bible speaks of works, it refers to people who think they can earn salvation by their own effort.
But this verse is saying that salvation is not of works, instead salvation is a gift
And my mustering enough faith on their own?

Salvation is the gift. So is the means that brings it about.

If faith is not a gift of God then what is it?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
If salvation was effectual at the cross, then everyone who was going to believe was saved at the cross, most before they were born. And that without faith,
You're conflating decrees(which happen outside of time) with justification, sanctification(which happens in time). The elect are saved, are being saved, and will be saved because salvation is monergistic.

Remember that Abraham was also saved, yet the atonement had not been finished.

This is what distinguishes Calvinists from non Calvinists. We don't believe that a decision, pleading, asking, etc will save you. This work has already been done(decreed) before the foundation of the world. This does not negate the need for faith. This is why the gospel is good news to me.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are talking about Calvinism, we are talking about the grammatical structure of the verse.

According to "the grammatical structure of the verse", the ONLY thing that the "gift" could be is the entirety of "are saved by grace through faith". The gift CANNOT be "saved" to the exclusion of grace and faith since "saved" is a masculine participle, and "gift" is NEUTER.

You can't just write off a correct argument as being "Calvinism", simply because you don't like the conclusion.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You're conflating decrees(which happen outside of time) with justification, sanctification(which happens in time). The elect are saved, are being saved, and will be saved because salvation is monergistic.

Remember that Abraham was also saved, yet the atonement had not been finished.

This is what distinguishes Calvinists from non Calvinists. We don't believe that a decision, pleading, asking, etc will save you. This work has already been done(decreed) before the foundation of the world. This does not negate the need for faith. This is why the gospel is good news to me.
Abraham was saved because of His faith. Faith is counted as righteousness.
But I do admit it is not completely clear to me how His death on the cross reaches both directions.
What I do know is that before Christ resurrected, no one was indwelt.
That starts at pentecost and changes the dynamic
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Abraham was saved because of His faith. Faith is counted as righteousness.
But I do admit it is not completely clear to me how His death on the cross reaches both directions.
What I do know is that before Christ resurrected, no one was indwelt.
That starts at pentecost and changes the dynamic
What??

The reason you don't understand is because you have a Contradiction in your Paradigm. You are just two moves away from being Checkmated...
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
According to "the grammatical structure of the verse", the ONLY thing that the "gift" could be is the entirety of "are saved by grace through faith". The gift CANNOT be "saved" to the exclusion of grace and faith since "saved" is a masculine participle, and "gift" is NEUTER.

You can't just write off a correct argument as being "Calvinism", simply because you don't like the conclusion.
You are not incorporating the last part of the thought "not of works lest any man should boast"
Untill you address which part a person could boast about, you do not have a clear understanding of the passage
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are not incorporating the last part of the thought "not of works lest any man should boast"
Untill you address which part a person could boast about, you do not have a clear understanding of the passage

<Chuckle>
My understand of the passage about 100x better than yours, seth.
I can read it in Greek.
And all you do is MISREPRESENT the Greek.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Sure. Make accusations
Never support anything
Avoid back and forth discussion
That does not work for me.
The Gospels can fit well at the end of the Old Testament because they are mostly about Jesus keeping the Old Covenant. You are like Nicodemus, and are THE teacher of CARM; but do not know the Old Covenant concept of being Born Again?? Jesus taught Nicodemus about 'his' personal need of Regeneration 'before' Pentecost...

Nicodemus must be Born Again. King David must be Born Again. Moses must be Born Again. Adam was Born Again...

Checkmate...

Now; back to ignoring you. This was for people like @eternomade and the Lurkers...
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
The Gospels can fit well at the end of the Old Testament because they are mostly about Jesus keeping the Old Covenant. You are like Nicodemus, and are THE teacher of CARM; but do not know the Old Covenant concept of being Born Again?? Jesus taught Nicodemus about 'his' personal need of Regeneration 'before' Pentecost...

Nicodemus must be Born Again. King David must be Born Again. Moses must be Born Again. Adam was Born Again...

Checkmate...

Now; back to ignoring you. This was for people like @eternomade and the Lurkers...
Ok. show where Moses was born again.
Or show where anyone in the OT was born again.
If you are going to promote something, shouldn't you be able to show scriture?
 
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