Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe……

TibiasDad

Well-known member
It does not say the sheep already heard His voice Doug. This would also imply the sheep were once goats. It does not say that anywhere either.
If the verbs are present tense, active voice, then there was a time, logically, that they began hearing and following; thus there was point when they weren’t hearing and following. Nobody always hears and follows!

What was the intent of the atonement Doug? To save or simply make salvation possible?

The intent of the atonement was to reconcile the world to God (2Cor 5:19, Eph 2:16) by the purging of sin, and thus, turning aside the wrath of God, allowing God's love to be extended to the world. Thus, it would both make possible and effect the salvation of those who believe.

Did Christ atone for the lost in hell? I find that position abhorrent.
His blood is sufficient to save everyone; that not all are saved does not diminish the power of his blood. I find abhorrent that God would decisively and deliberately choose the large majority of humans to suffer Hell before the foundation of the world!



Doug
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
My doctor is sending me to the Hospital because now my foot has Staph mrsr. Intervenius antibiotics all weekend, then set up at home for 6-8 week pic line...

Since he told me that, I feel wore out physically. I'm beginning to wonder if my Day is coming soon...
Psalm 62:8 my brother! Prayers for you and your family as well, I know what it's like to be down!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
If the verbs are present tense, active voice, then there was a time, logically, that they began hearing and following; thus there was point when they weren’t hearing and following. Nobody always hears and follows!



The intent of the atonement was to reconcile the world to God (2Cor 5:19, Eph 2:16) by the purging of sin, and thus, turning aside the wrath of God, allowing God's love to be extended to the world. Thus, it would both make possible and effect the salvation of those who believe.


His blood is sufficient to save everyone; that not all are saved does not diminish the power of his blood. I find abhorrent that God would decisively and deliberately choose the large majority of humans to suffer Hell before the foundation of the world!



Doug
Sure. When Christ called His sheep. He does not call goats.

So the efficacy of the cross is dependent on the will of man.

Christ's blood is of infinite value and is sufficient to save all but its not His intent to save all. If it were all would be saved. Christ is not a failure. No one He intends to save goes lost. Christ accomplished His purpose in saving those given to Him by the Father to save.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If you do not know the origin of these 4 ideas then you do not know the Bible very well.

<Chuckle>

More edit game playing by you.
When others don't give Scripture, you throw a hissy-fit and criticize them for not providing Scriptures. But if THEY responded to YOU with, "If you don't know the origin of my claim then you do not know the Bible very well", you wouldn't accept that bankrupt excuse at all.

But you expect us to accept it when YOU don't have Scripture for your bogus claims.

But to other posters, If you trully do not know where these 4 ideas are taught, I am happy to discuss each idea and the scriptures the ideas are derived from.

No, you're not.
Because if you were, you would have GIVEN them by now, instead of offering bankrupt promises.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Trust comes from knowing truths about God and seeing that He is trustworthy.
When we speak specifically of the use of the Greek word that means to entrust ourselves to Jesus, that is our decision.
If you are speaking about the faith to know that God exists, that is a gift from God. Without it, we would know nothing about Him and have no conviction about our need for Him. But that faith does not save, it enlightens and provokes us.

No Scripture in THAT post, either...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
How do you do faith? That is a simple question that has been answered here many times.
The Greek word can mean "to entrust yourself to" When you believe in Jesus, you are entrusting yourself to Him.
That is what you must "do" to be saved, trust Jesus.

No Scriptures in THAT post, either...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Actually in those 4 statements I absolutely did address where each use of the word, each type of faith originates.
Did you read them?
One reason why faith is a gift in one place and not in another is because of each instance being a noun or a verb.
A noun can be a gift, a verb is something we do. Rules of grammar

Still no Scriptures to support his false claims...
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
My doctor is sending me to the Hospital because now my foot has Staph mrsr. Intervenius antibiotics all weekend, then set up at home for 6-8 week pic line...

Since he told me that, I feel wore out physically. I'm beginning to wonder if my Day is coming soon...
Oh no! "Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.” 🙏


Doug
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
<Chuckle>

More stupid game playing by you.
When others don't give Scripture, you throw a hissy-fit and criticize them for not providing Scriptures. But if THEY responded to YOU with, "If you don't know the origin of my claim then you do not know the Bible very well", you wouldn't accept that bankrupt excuse at all.

But you expect us to accept it when YOU don't have Scripture for your bogus claims.



No, you're not.
Because if you were, you would have GIVEN them by now, instead of offering bankrupt promises.
I have given you and Civic those answers many times. You could supply them yourself now if you were inclined.
But again, it seems that other posters already know where these ideas come from or for some reason are not asking to see.
Still I will gladly show any poster who is interested
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have given you and Civic those answers many times. You could supply them yourself now if you were inclined.

Bankrupt excuse.
WE have shown you the citations for what WE believe, but you STILL ask us to show them over and over again. Nothing but double standards on your part.

And no, I can't "supply them [my]self", since such passages don't exist, and even if they did, I don't save your posts (as another poster pointed out as well).

But again, it seems that other posters already know where these ideas come from or for some reason are not asking to see.

Wow.... You probably actually believe that!
No, the likely reason others don't ask is because they know you too well, and they know better than to waste their time because they know you're never going to answer.

Case in point.... You've had PLENTY of opportunities to provide them by now, and you still refuse to.

Still I will gladly show any poster who is interested

Another false claim by you.
So far, THREE people have asked you to provide them.
Yet you REFUSE to do so, and you insult them by falsely accusing them of being ignorant of the Bible.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I have given you and Civic those answers many times. You could supply them yourself now if you were inclined.
But again, it seems that other posters already know where these ideas come from or for some reason are not asking to see.
Still I will gladly show any poster who is interested
Actually you have not and made it up. If it’s true then link us to one of your several thousand posts that backs up your false claims .
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Bankrupt excuse.
WE have shown you the citations for what WE believe, but you STILL ask us to show them over and over again. Nothing but double standards on your part.

And no, I can't "supply them [my]self", since such passages don't exist, and even if they did, I don't save your posts (as another poster pointed out as well).



Wow.... You probably actually believe that!
No, the likely reason others don't ask is because they know you too well, and they know better than to waste their time because they know you're never going to answer.

Case in point.... You've had PLENTY of opportunities to provide them by now, and you still refuse to.



Another false claim by you.
So far, THREE people have asked you to provide them.
Yet you REFUSE to do so, and you insult them by falsely accusing them of being ignorant of the Bible.
No. two of you, Theo and Civic ask to have me prove what I say by addressing scriptures. You two have both been shown many times.
But like I said if there is someone who does not know where those four ideas come from. I will show that poster and then you and Civic can jump in and admit you knew all along what I was talking about.
Your regular pattern here.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
All this is, is an indicative statement about those who had already believed! The verbs are all present, indicative, active, not passive, meaning that the sheep are acting of their own accord for their own benefit. There is nothing to imply that there are a select group of people who alone are chosen!
My dear friend Tibias, I have nothing but respect for you. And I am grateful for our civil discussion we have had, and thank you for that. But I beg to differ. Let's start with the crucial question asked to Jesus by the Jews. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” And interesting, this same question is raised again at Jesus trial, and the high priest will regard Jesus' answer as blasphemy. Now this question raises some very pertinent questions. Didn't God promise to send a Messiah (Promised Seed) to redeem his people? Wasn't the Law the given to God's people as a guardian to always point them to the coming Messiah because of their sins, and a need for a Savior? Did not Jesus perform signs and miracles, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled?

But for some reason you skipped this question in verse 24, why? This is key to understanding these passages. So now let's look at how Jesus answers this question. 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me." Here Jesus says I told you, but you do not believe me or the evidence of my works that I do in my FATHER'S name that bear witness about me. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him. Even though the Scriptures foretells of a coming Messiah. But they didn't believe even though of all the signs and miracles Christ performed. They wanted Jesus to confess who he was, so by this very question, they showed their unbelief already. Which is why Jesus answered them by saying "I told you, and the works I do in my Father's name bear witness about me.

So now let's find out why they don't believe, in the next verse. 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. This passage is clear, Jesus says to them, but you do not believe, BECAUSE you are NOT AMONG my Sheep (Elect/God's People). So to say there is no chosen people of God is wrong. This passage clearly emphasizing this to be the case. And it will even be reinforced later in the run of these passages. So, the reason why they don't believe or see,, or hear Christ is BECAUSE they are not the ones whom the Father gave to the Son to save. These Jews were NOT among Jesus' sheep, that's why that can't believe, or see, or hear him. (The definition of because: for the reason of, since. Other phrases of because: on account of; by reason of).

Which takes us into the next verse. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. Here Jesus is making a contrast between his Sheep and those not among his sheep. He says 'MY' sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and THEY follow me. So Jesus's believe and follow him, because THEY are his sheep, different from the Jews mentioned before, right? Then Jesus tell them what he has come to do for HIS sheep. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Here's it is the Covenant of Grace (Gospel). Jesus tells them I give eternal life, and will never perish (Eternal Security/God's Promise). I'm trying to be concise as possible, but that is very hard to do. So much to unpack.

Next verse, 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” My Father who has given them to me, are the elect or chosen people of God, and no one is able to snatch them out of his Father's hand. Again this is the Covenant of Redemption between the God Heads. I do not know how you can even think to dispute these passages. They are crystal clear who Jesus is saving and that his sheep whom the Father gave to him to save, can see, hear, believe and follow Christ!

I have a lot more to write, but I'll leave you with this for now.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
No. two of you, Theo and Civic ask to have me prove what I say by addressing scriptures. You two have both been shown many times.
But like I said if there is someone who does not know where those four ideas come from. I will show that poster and then you and Civic can jump in and admit you knew all along what I was talking about.
Your regular pattern here.
And your regular pattern is no citations , no scripture , no references , no exegesis .

next
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No. two of you, Theo and Civic ask to have me prove what I say by addressing scriptures. You two have both been shown many times.

That's simply false.
That's nothing but an excuse to continue claiming you have Scripture, while refusing to actually cite it (which would be trivially simple, if you had any).

It's as worthless as, "the cheque is in the mail. TRUST me."

But like I said if there is someone who does not know where those four ideas come from. I will show that poster and then you and Civic can jump in and admit you knew all along what I was talking about.
Your regular pattern here.

And no matter who asks you to show the Scriptures, you will make a bankrupt excuse like "You already know the Scriptures I mean", or "You're not really interested in them", to continue to avoid admitting you have ZERO Scriptures.

I fully believe you THINK you have Scriptures, but I also think you know very well that if you cite them, we can easily show they DON'T support your bogus claims. That's why you refuse to show them, so they can't examined.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That's simply false.
That's nothing but an excuse to continue claiming you have Scripture, while refusing to actually cite it (which would be trivially simple, if you had any).

It's as worthless as, "the cheque is in the mail. TRUST me."



And no matter who asks you to show the Scriptures, you will make a bankrupt excuse like "You already know the Scriptures I mean", or "You're not really interested in them", to continue to avoid admitting you have ZERO Scriptures.

I fully believe you THINK you have Scriptures, but I also think you know very well that if you cite them, we can easily show they DON'T support your bogus claims. That's why you refuse to show them, so they can't examined.
Your last line betrays you. You are admitting that I have shown scripture and that you disagree with me as to what they teach
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Your last line betrays you. You are admitting that I have shown scripture and that you disagree with me as to what they teach

Wrong again.
I was speaking hypothetically.

But seriously, seth, if you truly imagine that you've already shown them (which I know you haven't), why are you so afraid to cite them again?

Unlike you, I'm not ashamed of Scripture.
For monotheism, I've quoted the passages hundreds of times.
For the deity of Christ, I've quoted the passages hundreds of times.
For faith alone, I've quoted the passages hundreds of times.
For faith being a gift, I've quoted the passages hundreds of times.

And I'll continue to do so hundreds of times in the future.

But you would rather write 10-20 entire posts defending not quoting Scripture, and trying to insult others, rather than quote 1-2 lines containing your imaginary verses. Why?
 
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