Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe……

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Tibias I have nothing but respect for you, but this is ridiculous. I see you only pick a small section of my post and Scripture.
You only referenced verse 27 in the post I responded to.
So now let's find out why they don't believe, in the next verse. 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. This passage is clear, Jesus says to them, but you do not believe, BECAUSE you are NOT AMONG my Sheep (Elect/God's People).
Let me ask, if what you say is accurate, then all of those to whom Jesus spoke those words would never be capable of believing, right? If they are not of his sheep, that being among those Elected by God in the beginning, then it is impossible for them to really believe. Yet, for some reason, Jesus says to them at the end of chapter 10 "38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

So he was dismissing that they didn't believe what Jesus actually said, and pointing them in another direction, what he did, the miracles, the healings, the casting out of demons, and telling them to believe the evidence of what he has done!

If Jesus knew that they could never believe because they are not among his sheep, which is your contention, why point them to something else as proof that he is the Messiah? Moreover, some of those Jesus referred to as not being sheep in 10:26, are seen as becoming more open to Jesus, saying, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?” (10:21)


Doug
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
You only referenced verse 27 in the post I responded to.
Okay, so your thoughts on what I wrote?
Let me ask, if what you say is accurate, then all of those to whom Jesus spoke those words would never be capable of believing, right? If they are not of his sheep, that being among those Elected by God in the beginning, then it is impossible for them to really believe. Yet, for some reason, Jesus says to them at the end of chapter 10 "38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

So he was dismissing that they didn't believe what Jesus actually said, and pointing them in another direction, what he did, the miracles, the healings, the casting out of demons, and telling them to believe the evidence of what he has done!

If Jesus knew that they could never believe because they are not among his sheep, which is your contention, why point them to something else as proof that he is the Messiah? Moreover, some of those Jesus referred to as not being sheep in 10:26, are seen as becoming more open to Jesus, saying, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?” (10:21)


Doug
Doug, is this all that you got out of what I wrote? No mention of why they didn't believe because they were not among his sheep. Or the sheep were the ones the Father gave to Christ to save and lose none of them, which no one can snatch out of his hand or his Father's hand. That only his sheep can only hear his voice and follow him.

Keep reading Doug, verse 40 He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained. 41 And many came to him. And they said, “John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true.” 42 And many believed in him there.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Doug, is this all that you got out of what I wrote? No mention of why they didn't believe because they were not among his sheep. Or the sheep were the ones the Father gave to Christ to save and lose none of them, which no one can snatch out of his hand or his Father's hand. That only his sheep can only hear his voice and follow him.
Perhaps you need to reread my response, for my whole premise is based on what you said about "why they didn't believe because they were not among his sheep." I said if your assertions are true, then why did Jesus say, "even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", if Jesus was teaching they weren't sheep (elected from the foundation of the world) and that why they hadn't and would not ever believe?



Keep reading Doug, verse 40 He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained. 41 And many came to him. And they said, “John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true.” 42 And many believed in him there.
I'm not sure what you're saying here...


Doug
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Perhaps you need to reread my response, for my whole premise is based on what you said about "why they didn't believe because they were not among his sheep." I said if your assertions are true, then why did Jesus say, "even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", if Jesus was teaching they weren't sheep (elected from the foundation of the world) and that why they hadn't and would not ever believe?
Oh okay, then. So we are in agreement?

In regards to the question you pose. I'll quote Calvin, "The Jews therefore surrounded him. This was undoubtedly a cunning attack on Christ, at least on the part of those with whom the scheme originated. For the common people might, without any fraud, desire that Christ would openly declare that God had sent him to be a deliverer; but a few persons, by trick and stratagem (scheme to out wit an opponent), wished to draw this word from him amidst the crowd, that he might be killed by a mob, or that the Romans might lay hands in him.

And it was the Feast of Dedication. The Greek word (έγχαίνια) which we have translated dedication, properly signifies renovations; because the temples, which had been polluted, was again consecrated by the command of Judas Maccabaeus; and at that time it was enacted that the day of the new Dedication or Consecration should be celebrated every year as a festival, that the the people might recall to remembrance the Grace of God, which had put an end to the tyranny of Antiochus. Christ appeared in the temple at that time, according to customs, that his preaching might yield more abundant fruit amidst a large assembly of men.

So Doug when Jesus was telling them about his Father's works and the sign and wonder he does in his Father's name, he was preaching to the large crowd gather there that day. And those who were trying to trick him and the crowd to attack him and have the Romans lay hands on him. They rejected Jesus words, which will be the words that will judge them on the last day.

John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Oh okay, then. So we are in agreement?

In regards to the question you pose. I'll quote Calvin, "The Jews therefore surrounded him. This was undoubtedly a cunning attack on Christ, at least on the part of those with whom the scheme originated. For the common people might, without any fraud, desire that Christ would openly declare that God had sent him to be a deliverer; but a few persons, by trick and stratagem (scheme to out wit an opponent), wished to draw this word from him amidst the crowd, that he might be killed by a mob, or that the Romans might lay hands in him.

And it was the Feast of Dedication. The Greek word (έγχαίνια) which we have translated dedication, properly signifies renovations; because the temples, which had been polluted, was again consecrated by the command of Judas Maccabaeus; and at that time it was enacted that the day of the new Dedication or Consecration should be celebrated every year as a festival, that the the people might recall to remembrance the Grace of God, which had put an end to the tyranny of Antiochus. Christ appeared in the temple at that time, according to customs, that his preaching might yield more abundant fruit amidst a large assembly of men.

So Doug when Jesus was telling them about his Father's works and the sign and wonder he does in his Father's name, he was preaching to the large crowd gather there that day. And those who were trying to trick him and the crowd to attack him and have the Romans lay hands on him. They rejected Jesus words, which will be the words that will judge them on the last day.

John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Honestly, my brother, I have read this carefully and do not see how this answers my question. If I knew that you were not elect, and therefore knew that you would never be given belief and thus never believe, then why would I even extend the possibility of belief to those who have rejected my previous messages of truth?


Doug
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Honestly, my brother, I have read this carefully and do not see how this answers my question. If I knew that you were not elect, and therefore knew that you would never be given belief and thus never believe, then why would I even extend the possibility of belief to those who have rejected my previous messages of truth?


Doug
Yes, Doug I understood your question. And I answered it, that the reason Jesus said that was because those Jews were trying to be cunning and attempting to set a trap for Jesus in the front of the large at the Feast of Dedication. The Jews thought if Jesus confessed being the Son of God, that the large crowd would attack him, or that the Jews could arrest him. So Jesus preached and defended the Gospel to both these Jews and to this large crowd. So Jesus when was proclaiming this to these Jews everybody could hear what was being said. So Jesus was proclaiming that he came to do His Father's will (works/signs & miracles) in His Father's name, this was for everyone to hear, Doug. For His sheep who could hear his voice and follow him.

The last verse in my last post, was that the rejection of these Jews against Jesus' and his Gospel will be what brings judgment against them on the last day.

I hope I made lucid enough. This is not hard to understand, it was like a mini trial in the amidst of this Feast of Dedication in front of a large crowd, where could see & hear what was going on.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Honestly, my brother, I have read this carefully and do not see how this answers my question. If I knew that you were not elect, and therefore knew that you would never be given belief and thus never believe, then why would I even extend the possibility of belief to those who have rejected my previous messages of truth?


Doug
Because "in one sense" God desires that All Mankind be Saved. I believe that if the World had never Fallen, only the Elect would ever have been born. But because God is Omnibenevolent, he has a desire for All Men to be Saved; if they would only reach out. But because of their Depraved Minds, they just won't do it...
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Because "in one sense" God desires that All Mankind be Saved. I believe that if the World had never Fallen, only the Elect would ever have been born. But because God is Omnibenevolent, he has a desire for All Men to be Saved; if they would only reach out. But because of their Depraved Minds, they just won't do it...
I hope you are feeling well, my dear brother in Christ. Doug's question is that if Christ knows that these Jews are not among his sheep, why is Christ still trying to convince them to believe. But Christ was being set-up by Jews in trying to trick into confessing that he is the Son of God, Which in those days was a serious crime, that condemns people to death. But this incident between these Jews and Jesus at the time of the Feast of Dedication occurred in front of a large crowd, and these Jews wants this large crowd to hear the blasphemy from Jesus' own mouth. And be able to charge him with blasphemy. And incite a riot for to have this large crowd attack Jesus at the Feast. This ambush my these Jews was like a mini trial on front of this large crowd, and it created division among the crowd.

19 There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

So to address Doug's question, Jesus was preaching and defending the Gospel to the whole crowd, all who could see and listen to this exchange between these Jews and Jesus who were trying to trick Jesus and trick the crowd to attack Jesus by getting Jesus to admit that he was the Son of God, to charge him with blasphemy and stone him.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I hope you are feeling well, my dear brother in Christ. Doug's question is that if Christ knows that these Jews are not among his sheep, why is Christ still trying to convince them to believe. But Christ was being set-up by Jews in trying to trick into confessing that he is the Son of God, Which in those days was a serious crime, that condemns people to death. But this incident between these Jews and Jesus at the time of the Feast of Dedication occurred in front of a large crowd, and these Jews wants this large crowd to hear the blasphemy from Jesus' own mouth. And be able to charge him with blasphemy. And incite a riot for to have this large crowd attack Jesus at the Feast. This ambush my these Jews was like a mini trial on front of this large crowd, and it created division among the crowd.

19 There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

So to address Doug's question, Jesus was preaching and defending the Gospel to the whole crowd, all who could see and listen to this exchange between these Jews and Jesus who were trying to trick Jesus and trick the crowd to attack Jesus by getting Jesus to admit that he was the Son of God, to charge him with blasphemy and stone him.
Jesus, in the humanity wanted more time to dung them; but certainly not according to his Divinity. We see Compatibalism in the person of Jesus Christ. We also see that the human Will isn't Free, but always does the Will of the Father...

I'm doing better, was sick all day...
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
Because "in one sense" God desires that All Mankind be Saved. I believe that if the World had never Fallen, only the Elect would ever have been born. But because God is Omnibenevolent, he has a desire for All Men to be Saved; if they would only reach out. But because of their Depraved Minds, they just won't do it...
Hey, Rev, first and foremost, I hope you are feeling better! But to the point, how can God genuinely desire all men be saved, while deliberately electing the few to salvation and the rest to reprobation? To me that is a logical contradiction: I want you to be saved, but it is my good pleasure to decree you a reprobate.

Doug
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Hey, Rev, first and foremost, I hope you are feeling better! But to the point, how can God genuinely desire all men be saved, while deliberately electing the few to salvation and the rest to reprobation? To me that is a logical contradiction: I want you to be saved, but it is my good pleasure to decree you a reprobate.

Doug
Doug a "few" is misleading, so to clarify it. God said that the elect will be like the number of stars in the sky. How many stars are there?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Doug a "few" is misleading, so to clarify it. God said that the elect will be like the number of stars in the sky. How many stars are there?
Jesus said the Gate is small and the road to life narrow and "only a few find it." Matt 7:14. So which of the Divine statements is the more literal? Besides, there are only about 5000 stars visible to the unaided human eye.

Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Hey, Rev, first and foremost, I hope you are feeling better! But to the point, how can God genuinely desire all men be saved, while deliberately electing the few to salvation and the rest to reprobation? To me that is a logical contradiction: I want you to be saved, but it is my good pleasure to decree you a reprobate.

Doug
Because the Bible says both. Ravi called this a Contrariety...

For whatever that's worth these days :(
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But that is simply a contradiction, not a clear paradoxical set of ideas.

Doug
Nothing the Bible teaches is a Contradiction, but rather is a Contrariety. The Bible says to make burnt Offerings; but he would rather sacrifices weren't done. If an Atheist brought this up, they would call it a Contradiction and use it as a reason to not believe. Many other things could be mentioned...

I'm feeling better, but am tired...
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
But Christ was being set-up by Jews in trying to trick into confessing that he is the Son of God, Which in those days was a serious crime, that condemns people to death. But this incident between these Jews and Jesus at the time of the Feast of Dedication occurred in front of a large crowd, and these Jews wants this large crowd to hear the blasphemy from Jesus' own mouth. And be able to charge him with blasphemy. And incite a riot for to have this large crowd attack Jesus at the Feast. This ambush my these Jews was like a mini trial on front of this large crowd, and it created division among the crowd.
This is not a scriptural argument. Calvin has crafted something as a possible explanation, but this is not an actual part of the text. It also doesn't answer my question.

Doug
 
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